Brave Spaces with Mx. Jacob Kelley

Britt East [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with your host Britt East. No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy. So get ready to join us for some courageous conversation, because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt East [00:00:30] Hi everyone, welcome to Not Going Quietly, a podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truth in the name of radical togetherness. I'm your host, Britt East, and I have such a fabulous featured guest today. I cannot wait for you to meet them. So let's dive right in. Mx. Jacob Kelley is a dynamic entrepreneur, celebrated author and sought after queer, inclusive sex educator. As the founder of Mx. Kelly Queer Education LLC. Jacob has pioneered sex education and consulting, specializing in LGBTQIA+ inclusion and sexual health education with a master's in human health sexuality education and is a Ph.D. candidate in human sexuality philosophy. They have committed their career to transforming how institutions approach sex education and queer inclusion. I can't wait to hear more about that.

Britt East [00:01:26] Jacob's impact is evident in the numerous accolades they've received, including the 2024 D-I champion, Young Professionals, Award Development, Young Professionals Award and 2023 Pride Champion Award. They have also been named LGBT leader and advocate of the Susquehanna region for 2022 and 2023 and were honored by the United States Navy for delivering exceptional Pride Education and 2022. Jacob's dynamic presence extends beyond the lecture hall, where they recently won both the Kids Choice and People's Choice Award. And Wilkes Barr's Dancing with the Stars 2024.

Britt East [00:02:03] As a highly respected sex educator, Jacob has guest lectured and taught at over 50 colleges, sharing their expertise on queer sexual health, consent, sexual behaviors and gender identity. Their work has brought vital educations to institutions such as Penn State, Bloomsburg University, Bucknell University and beyond. Jacob's approach to sex education emphasizes inclusivity, empowerment and breaking down taboos to foster healthier, more open dialogs around sexuality.

Britt East [00:02:30] Not only a powerful voice in education. Jacob also dazzles audiences as a drag performer under their personality. Trixie Valentine Blending Entertainment with activism. With nearly a decade of performances, they have graced stages across the region and recently appeared on NBC's The Weakest Link. Additionally, they are the author of the book Tipping is a Must 100 Tips for a Successful Drag Show. Available on Amazon. Nationally recognized for their individual influential work and the LGBTQ plus community. Jacob Kelly continues to educate, entertain and inspire. To learn more about Jacob or bring mixed Kelly Queer education to your institution, visit Juicy with Jacob. We were going to give you that link in the show notes, along with all sorts of other goodies. Jake You are making me laugh so hard because I was embarrassing the hell out of you with all your accolades, which always tickles me to no end. You have an impressive list of honors and awards. At any rate. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being our featured guest today. How are you?

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:03:33] Well, after reading that, I'm like, who wrote that? That that person sounds absolutely amazing.

Britt East [00:03:43] You got to claim that. I really thought.

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:03:47] That I sound good.

Britt East [00:03:49] There you go. Absolutely. Absolutely. But all the Queerlings out there need to be inspired. You got to teach the children. So I think that literally and figuratively in your case. So I think that's awesome. I love embarrassing my guests with their bios. So so kudos to all that you've done. And let's talk about some of that. One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about, and I think you're the perfect person to talk about this with, is how we as queer people can start to decouple our sex lives from heteronormative expectations, rules. All of that baggage we get just being saturated in straight supremacy. How can we create our own unique forms of sexual art, play fantasies and realities that are just ours and are not just purely influence or controlled by heteronormativity and straightness?

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:04:47] We starting off with heavy questions. I'm here for it.

Britt East [00:04:51] I dive right in.

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:04:52] I was like, okay, we we are not walking. We are jumping. And I love that. So the first thing that's coming to mind is I have I have two thoughts. My first thought is we're we have when we recognize queer culture and where it stems from, we have to celebrate what we what has come before us, who has come before us and where we've been. Because in those alignments, we, we do celebrate forms of queer relationships, queer identities, queer joy, queer sex, queer pleasure and. So an example, if I'm thinking of makes me think of like this scene of kink in my leg, being able to enjoy breaking down barriers of where pleasure can look like or when we're at pride events and we are actually letting our hair down or putting a wig on sort of say and like elements in there, in the elements in just a basic level have already existed. But to answer your question of how do we move that needle to get away from heteronormative thinking? It's we have to stop thinking like hetero people. We have to stop thinking there is an absolute we have to stop thinking there's a universal way to live. And a lot of that goes into beyond the resilience that we have. Instead of looking at resilience as something of we're fighting, it's resilience in that feeling and emotion should actually drive us to say we need to be more authentically ourselves. And when I think about how that speaks to heteronormativity is we are grown up to raise and think of specific ways. Do we actually step into the process to learn, to then unlearn, to then relearn? And it's in that relearning stage of when we start to evaluate our process to be like, hold up, why do I want a relationship that says there is a man and woman in here? Like even though I'm more of a feminine and I fit the role of what that looks like in my relationship, that doesn't make me a it doesn't make me have a hetero normative relationship. And so when I'm teaching, how do we break those areas down? It is by the choice of words. So communication is important. The words we choose is powerful. So for me, I'm a first to say. I'm like, there's not there is not a hierarchy of here of who's in the relationship. It is two people who are two equal entities and two equal powers in a relationship. And right there, you've already started breaking down heteronormative, normative thinking and hierarchy of who is who in a relationship and start saying like, you can be 100% yourself in relationship with the other person, can be 100% in their relationship and therefore we are not engaging in that schema or that dialog of heteronormative thinking because we have accepted. We're not like, I'm not heteronormative. And I think a lot of the times when we say, Yeah, we're queer, what does that mean? And we sometimes, as I think as a queer community, we leaning to those stereotypes a little bit. But I think that can be okay, right? There's plainness there. There's there's some truth to it. It is not the ultimate truth, but there is some truth to captivating or capturing those stereotypes in a way that fits us to empower us, not necessarily to take us away or to bring us down. And so that's that's sort of the first thought. This the second thought I have is definitely in the internal dialog of thinking. And so one of the things that I have learned within my education and this is I'm kind going to get loud nerdy on you where my dissertation is held is that we self define who we are. And what we are not taught is to define who we are. We have the expectation to say, Who are you? And we're always asked, What do you want to be when you grow up? Who do you want to be when you grow up? But in reality, instead of saying When you want to grow who you want to be today, how are you defining who you are today? And those questions are never asked. And as queer folks, we know who we are. We don't have to go through like masking and social principles. We have to go like, Well, what if my identity does fall with like, more heteronormative things? Why is this other piece not showing? Because we're othering ourselves. It's us versus that mentality. And we are we have a comparative mindset or competitive mindset. And what we need is a self understanding of defining ourselves mindset with a collaborative mindset. And how I will explain that in just a second is when you take to when you define who you are and you accept who you are, you have a meaning of self. I didn't say identity. I want to put that out there. I did not say you have a meaning of identity. You have a meaning of self. Your identity then comes when you are able to articulate, express, and create that form of authenticity or expressive authenticity from yourself. That is where identity comes from, and that's what we try to fight for because those are where the barriers are coming up. Because then the third process outside of that is then when we start engaging and start applying everything and we're starting to interact with everyone. But what I find is if we really want to move away from heteronormative self, let me ask how you're defining who you are and let me ask how you're accepting yourself. The my gosh, you lost between that. The other part to that is also then that collaborative, the collaborative mindset. Right? How. When you are with someone, do you see yourself more? Because we are not linear. We are not we are not lines. We are full circles. We are multi forms of people where when we're in certain situations, our dynamics change. And that's okay. Like when we say we're well rounded, do we really say we're well rounded individuals and so we are not fully queer, right? We are also have these other forms of identities. We have our race, we have our age. We have that intersectional piece that comes with us also. And so when we look at heteronormativity, we also have to say, is it my racial and ethnic background that's holding me back? Is it my age and generational mindset that's holding me back? Is it my class or location or demographic that's holding me back? And then those pieces start telling the story of like when I'm in certain spaces, I'm not fully who I am and I have to be honest and transparent in there. And so if I'm going to say we're busting down the walls, you have to process all of that. You have to start defining who you are. And then in these spaces. And so the collaborative piece says we're not competing for a spot. We're collaborating to be like, I'm existing in your space the way I feel comfortable and the way I want to show you. You don't get to put that on me. And so much in heteronormative thinking. It's didactic. It's it's one or the other. It's black and white and it's like queer is gray. It is a gray culture. We we are we are questioned because we are different because every aspect of who we are is different. And we are questioned. Then in every setting.

Britt East [00:11:59] That is beautiful. You so much came up for me when you're talking about that. I was thinking at first, like it all kind of starts with curiosity. Like as I reflect on the life as I'm living it each night, the day that I've had. And I think about the ups and the downs, the joy, the laughter, the pain, the anger, the sorrow, the successes, the mistakes. If I'm cultivating excuse me. If I'm cultivating a sense of curiosity. I might wonder, like you alluded to, you know, why why am I experiencing some things over and over again? What are the themes of my experience? And then where does that come from? And maybe that leads to the acknowledgment of a system that we all live in, a culture that we all live in, and that might be inadvertently or on purpose, placing constraints on my experience, on my expression, on my identities. And so I might then start to wonder, like you alluded to again, where am I feeling limited? Where am I feeling friction and resistance and how can I experience less of that? That seems perfectly normal. So my question to you is, when did you first start experiencing that journey? When you were a little quibbling coming up, When did you first start experiencing the friction of this heteronormativity and start to get curious and acknowledge these systems?

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:13:35] For me, it was probably when I was younger, like age wise, maybe 7 or 8, but I didn't have the words to know what it means. I was just a kid who was different. Like I always complimented by my mother on what she was wearing. I never fully grasp the understanding of relationships with individuals in the sense of like, intimacy as kids. So to take that route, it's like who we hold hands with, who we kiss, who we hug. Right? Like there were no boundaries in the sense of like, who we could do that with. Instead, like I didn't receive when receiving those messages, I was always like, But why? Like. Like, I'm just going to give a name out there. This is a pseudonym. But like, why is why is Johnny one of my friends a person I can't hug? Right. Because where were boys like, I don't understand. Like, I just really like Johnny. We're good friends. Or there's, you know, Tricia over there. I hug Trish, but, you know, I'm allowed to hug her but not Johnny. I don't get it. And so when I was younger, I would always be like, I don't get it, but like, I would just, like, go with the flow, right? Like when my parents like, we don't do that, you know, when we're learning those social roles. And then how I was expressive. I was always very I was very charismatic of like always having mannerisms. My parents say I had sass sense forever and always, so that has always existed. But then for me, it was around the age of 14 when I like took that step of like, wait, there is a thing here that's not fitting because now I'm looking around. I'm like, I don't act like the other people around me. I don't I'm not attracted to women. The way these boys I'm hanging out with are attracted to women. I don't see my gender. When I hear someone call me a man, I'm like, I don't. I don't. Why does that not? Why is this feeling uncomfortable? Like there were no words at the time. So I'm just sitting here and a lot of uncomfortable feelings. And so the younger self, me, those would be the ages where I would start figuring out like what coming out was. And I and in high school I actually did a lot of research and writing around LGBT stuff. So back then we didn't have a lot of vocabulary. So that if I have to give a time frame that's like 2010, if you need to know that that is when I was in my teens. I won't say which teenage, but that was it. And so it was a struggle. It was a struggle to get that information and to feel myself. For me, it wasn't until I got to my undergrad in my college that I was like, my gosh, this is like what it can be. This is what I'm finding. People who think like me, who feel like me, who express themselves like me. That was really the first time when I was around 18 to 20 and then when I was 23 is when I also then learned more about gender identity at a much more open area. Lately because of my master's degree and I met people who were identifying with these terms and I was like. My gosh. I get I'm this. And so that's where all the language and vocabulary started coming from. But since a young age, I've always I tell people the story of like, I faced homophobia since the age of six. Since the age of six, because the people in my class used to use the F-word slur to me that I know what it was. Absolutely not. When I was being called gay, I had no idea what they meant because I was six. But they were other people in my classes and my friends groups that were saying it. So I've experienced the friction for a very, very long time.

Britt East [00:17:09] Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. I think it's so important to share our stories to be in relationship one another, but also to paint fuller pictures of our lives. Because one of the I don't know what the right word is complaint, but one of the pieces of feedback I get just in this doing this work in my life from other queer people is that it can feel so conceptual, it can feel so esoteric, it can feel so theoretical, and it's like, well, it's actually based on the lived experience. And sure, there's all these wonderful, brilliant theories that that emanate from deep queer thought and leadership. But what we're talking about at the end of the day is relationships, whether with ourselves or with others. And so this work is very real. It's not navel gazing. It's not we're not just all writing dissertations to write and publish them, like you alluded to. It's it's to help people. It's to help ourselves at the end of the day. So sharing these stories of pain and success and trauma and survivorship and all this stuff, I think is it's so important to put kind of like meat on the bones. So, you know, because people are tired, we live in, like you alluded to, we live in this kind of zero sum flavor of capitalism immersed in the patriarchy, you know, and ironically or not, and maybe by design, those of us experienced the bigotry are also experiencing the trauma and the fatigue, and then also are required to do the work of like educating everybody else. It's a lot. So if we foist these theories on people without also sharing ourselves, it can feel maybe to some of them esoteric, arcane or conceptual. And I think at the end of the day, what I have learned and this is what I wanted to get your take on is so much of of positive social change is made one friend at a time. Friend is a metaphor, meaning a 1 to 1 relatedness as opposed to trying to convince people of things. Now, what I have found, this is where I'm coming to you, is I have found it so efficient and effective to resist systems. But what I have struggled at making success and being successful at is convincing people of things where I have felt successful as in relationships. So it's almost like two bookends. On one end, you have the 1 to 1 relationship with your friends and your loved ones, and that does not scale. It's not meant to their deep relationships. On the other hand, you have the systems work where we're looking at government, public policy, etc., etc.. So, Jacob, in your work, where are you finding success? Where are you finding your energy applied? You do so much work, I know at universities and in classrooms and inspiring young people is their first learning and growing. Where where are you finding most success in your journey?

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:20:14] For me, success in the element of what you were just speaking about in positivity and relationships is in two main areas. And so I'll actually speak on the first one because it was the first time I. Felt that positive impact and that was in community change. So before I started really getting into my business and doing my business, I was in the community like I started the first Pride's I out in north central Pennsylvania in like a 100 mile radius. And I was at town hall meetings just trying to have a conversation of like, why are these things coming out? I have used Drag as a place in rural areas where people are like, You did it where at a biker bar. And I'm like, yes. And yeah, yeah. And so and like in cornfields and barns, like you name it, I wasn't afraid. And I shouldn't say I wasn't afraid. I was afraid, but I had more passion and drive than fear. And when that happens, I was like, I don't care. I don't care what happens to me because this is needed. This is wanted in so that community change has uplifted to change smaller town ordinances, to get people to do proclamations, to have the quiet part finally actually stay quiet for the most part. Whether it comes back, it's coming back now. But but what had happened was voices that didn't that people didn't know needed to speak up, started speaking up mayors, commissioners, other leaders, organizational leaders in different nonprofits. And so people were like, Yeah, no, we support yeah, we support. And I'm like, Well, why are we not saying it? Where's that visibility? Where's that representation? And so for me, one of my main areas in community growth and development and like strategic designed to make events happen or certain conversations happen, I had people watch me who I didn't know were watching, and that's when I got a lot of love from queer people in rural areas. Just being like, my gosh. You know, I needed to hear this, and I didn't know this ever existed. Thank you for being the person. Like I when I say I cast the first stone, I cast the first stone, which caused such a beautiful ripple that my impact I when I tell you I have hugged more people in my life to say thank you for allowing me to stay here. Thank you and let me know that it's safe. Thank you for just giving me an ounce of hope and faith that we are actually going to be okay one day, if not only today. And I have messages from from every age. I have had, you know, teens reach out and say, hey, I dropped out of my school and I'm like, my gosh. Like, why? And then they said, Don't worry. Like you inspired me to to make the right decision. I went to a different school. I talked to my my mom and I'm like, if you did that? And they were like, Yeah. And I was like, you. And it's because I talked to them for 15 minutes in public in person. They just came up to me and said, Hi, how are you? You're an inspiration. I said, Tell me more about who you are, since you already know about me. And these are just general stories. And they did. And then a year later, they are now thriving. They. They are fully in their queer element. They are bold, they're brave. They're not afraid. And it's so beautiful to see that. So on a community level, that is the positive impact for the change in which I created was because I did the thing that no one else wanted to do, which was be uncomfortable, which was to feel unsafe, which was to feel the challenge that it is to be queer in the areas that I have that even on TV we say, Yeah, we're here. And I'm like, Well, my TV does not show that because I don't live there. The other part, though, is in my education and when I so I dedicated my entire career in life at the age of 14, because the one thing I learned and I think I blessed my English teacher for my English teacher is she should deserve I mean, she has got an award for being an amazing teacher, but she deserves an award. Like if I give her a person word of myself, I would, because when I did the age of 14, I struggled so hard to find who I was of the words and everything. But I remember I sat there at the age of 14 and she looked at me. She's like, Jake, do you know how much of a critical thinker you are? Like, I have no idea what that I don't know what that means. I've never heard that word in my life. Critical thinker. I just think like what's critical? And so through my journey in high school, she encouraged me to take writing classes and be vocal in like know how to conceptualize my understanding of things. And I did that. And she encouraged me then to ask myself, What do I want to be when I grow up? And I never gave a noun, not once. I never gave a noun. I gave a verb and I said, I need to be the person that makes a difference. I don't know how. Yeah, I don't know where. And she goes, You'll find it. And she knew what she was talking about. I leaned into education because it just when you're good at it, you're good at it. And then I was like, I'm really good at teaching people. I'm really good at I'm really good at explaining things at a level that most people might honor in an empathetic way, in a compassionate way, in an authentic way. I'm really good at it. And so I built an entire career that is saying to be the person I needed when I was younger. Because when I was younger, there was nobody that looked like me. There was nobody that sounded like me. There was no one being brave, bold and beautiful like me. There were people doing things they could. I will say that I don't want to say there was nobody. But for me in my eyes, I had no one else to look up to that could relate to almost any form of my identity, not just my queer identity, but like all of it, a role, identity and Asian-American identity. And so when I pushed myself to just say, Do it and became educated and took those chances and took those steps to get to where I'm at, all those things you read on that paper, those were, for me, reminders of like I put the work in, but I didn't put the work in to gain clout. I put the work in because I now walk into rooms and when I leave, I don't have people now hugging me. On the community side. I have people being like, You absolutely right. I'm about to go make some changes in my life so someone else can have that kindness, someone else can have that power. And I have helped people create different organizational policies because they saw the harm that it was doing. I've had people tell me I'm a go home. I'm about to go tell my sister they need to start treating their kids better because they had queer kids. I had, you know, classrooms of students look at me and go, I never realized that was something that was coming up and now I need to fix it. And so people are wanting to do that action because I educated them, I inspired them, and I gave them something to hold on. You in. That thing they hold on to is they now get to be the person they needed when they were younger without even knowing.

Britt East [00:27:29] You know, what I hear in that beautiful story is that you unapologetically own your brilliance, which I absolutely love and think is so critical. And you make the choice to connect with people. You know, keyboard activism is fantastic, but if that's all that it is, if that's the sum total of all that our community does, we're probably self optimizing. And so you are unafraid. Or when even when you are afraid, you still make the choice to be in relationship with strangers, acquaintances, other people. And that means being vulnerable. That means sharing some about yourself. That means listening like you, like you told on the story, listening to other people as as they come up to introduce themselves to you. So it's no wonder that you are making such change in the world because you referenced it a couple of times. I cannot help but wonder what about rural America and queer life in rural America? And I'm wondering, like if there's any misconceptions you think maybe urban queer things have about queer things in middle, middle America, rural America, however you want to say it, like, what is life really like? You know? Tell us some about your life in rural America.

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:28:46] One misconception, and I don't know if it was a misconception, but I'll tell the story of an moment. And when I used Drag to speak out online against something that happened in my hometown that was mocking of a public figure of a trans woman, I decided to say something because it happened in in my area, literally 20 minutes from where I live in a in a place they do a lot of things. And I said, this is not okay. I didn't know what to do other than to get in a drag. And I say that because once they started backpedaling, they said they wanted to look like Marilyn Monroe as like, you didn't like Marilyn Monroe. Get out of here. I will show you what Marilyn Monroe looks like. And I do. I'll show you all those photos later. And I remember I spoke up and I said, this is not okay. And I remember I wasn't even scripted. I said, I can't pre write this. I have the right words coming to a heart and mind at this time. And so I just spoke. And at that time, one of the things of the misconceptions I even had about World Community was that nobody was listening. Nobody's going to care. So many people listened. So many people cared. But people needed to hear it first. And one thing I learned about world Community is that bystander effect is real. But when there's one person that's willing to stand up others or they're ready to listen, they're like, wait, wait, I think they're going to say it. And when you do the misconception in rural areas, there's a lot of support. There's a lot of love. What I will say, there is a lot of ignorance and uneducated understanding. And that's not a misconception of rural areas, like there is a lack of education around these heavier topics because of there is a lack the lack of exposure. Then we have to start breaking that down. Like where does this on education and ignorance come from in world things? But what I learned is it's not necessarily the rural communities fault. When we look at it as a whole, because how many people are actually paying attention to these small towns? I'm from Pennsylvania. When I tell people I'm from Pennsylvania, they think I'm from Philly or Pittsburgh. I'm like, Nope. I'm from middle of nowhere. I'm from. And when I when I when I tell you my name, I have to like, are you in this town? This town, The town. I have to tell them it's an hour away from me. And they're like, that's where you live? I'm like, Absolutely. And so when I we look at as a whole, like rural areas are actually fostering a different level of community. That is, it is us. It's not small minded, it's small, it's small and intimate. It's an intimate community because everyone does know each other. But one thing world communities are not is that we are not afraid to have conversations. We don't always know how to communicate. That's right. But we're not afraid of it. And so much that I've learned in rural communities is just ask like it Can I talk most of the time? Not all the time. Some people do not want to talk to you, but most of the time the majority are like, Let's talk, let's actually talk. And that is a misconception I hear because people think like it's conservative. It is. It's conservative. And they're like, We don't want to talk. We're not going. We're just going to throw it out there and cast. And then I sit there and go, Hold up. We need to talk about it. And then when you say we need to talk about the one thing that I've learned in this is where I've learned how to navigate harder decisions because I now have to take a step back and look at somebody and go, You're about to say the one thing I hear, which is I need you to hear my side first. I love that. Then let me hear your side first. And I take that grace. I take on that responsibility. Like, let's talk. Once I hear them, I go, it sounds like you're actually compassionate. You got that from what he said. Now, the word they're choosing is not compassion. But I have to read between the lines. I have the process. I'm like, you have family values. You love your children and you love education in some way or form. And then we pause and go, you know what humanity looks like. You just don't know that humanity is different. And once we get to that conversation, that's when people start connecting go. Humanity is different from my family. You know what? Two families can live in the same place. Two people can live in the same place. It doesn't change the place at all. It makes it inclusive in that in rural areas, that conversation can happen easily, Easily like that. So those are my few misconceptions that communities, rural communities are easy to talk to. If you know how to communicate. And you know, there is progression in it. It's not it's not 1980. It's maybe that early 2000 as well.

Britt East [00:33:43] But there were I'm struck by are the similarities with the urban communities, though, and everything that you're saying? To be honest. Obviously, I'm not erasing differences. There are differences, but there it's almost like there are different flavors and textures. But really, the issues, the underlying issues are very similar. You know, my experience of rural America and my experience of what you're saying is it almost sounds like people are willing to be in a deep relationship, out of necessity in rural America, whereas maybe in urban America it might be easier to skim the surface and drift into anonymity. And there can be some consequences of that. But the most important thing I heard through the entire conversation so far is the sense of empowered choice. But you are choosing to transcend fear. You are choosing to read between the lines. In these conversations, you are choosing to relate to people. You are choosing to listen. You're choosing even when it costs you a little bit more than you might have otherwise scripted or desired, you're still choosing to pay that price. You're choosing to do the emotional labor. You're choosing to bear the burden, which is on some degree heroic and beautiful and also healing to, you know, the entire community, but also these relationships. Kind of going back to my point of one friend at a time, at least as a metaphor, you know, that you are in a given moment. You are relating one on 1 or 1 to a small group baring your soul trading stories, choosing to see the good in people rather than just the surface veneer and and coming in with your list of grievances and, you know, self-righteous indignation which is so warranted for quislings everywhere in the U.S. and all of that bag of rocks that we carry on our backs. You're choosing to transcend all of that and have a human moment. And I think that can happen in any geography. And there's different flavors in rural America. But I think it starts with our empowered, self empowered choice, which is so beautiful. But I wanted to tease apart, like you talked about something that I think is really important that we could all learn from you about how you make these difficult conversations more approachable. So you talked about the choice of like, okay, I'm going to let you say your piece first and you know, you're going to get that out and I'm going to do it in a humorous way and break the ice and all that. But I bet there's more depth there, like once that starts because all of these issues are real and can seem intractable. So my question to you is like, is there a specific technique that you have? Is it just intuitive? Is there some like something you've consciously cultivated, like how have you how do you find ways to make these difficult conversations more human and and less scary?

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:36:35] The first thing I do is set my boundaries because once I engage into a conversation, I know it's not going anywhere. Like when it's an us versus them conversation. I have to I will honestly say boundaries are important because some conversations I'm like, not I ain't the one today. It's not me. I don't have the time. I don't have the energy. There is a lot more that needs to happen for me to make sure I'm level started here. So let me just put it out there As much as I'm making it sound good there. Boundaries is important for me. But when we move, when I set those boundaries, that there is emotional intelligence that comes up for me, Right? So there is an emotional intelligence of engaging and looking at somebody who says who says something leftfield like who says something ignorant, who says something hateful. And I'm not afraid to look at something and go. Do you know what you're saying? And I know some people are like, What do you mean? I was like, No, no, I want to make sure I can hear you appropriately. And I put it back on. I'm never like you. You, you you said this. You did this. Why are you like this? I'm saying I'm sorry. I think I misheard you. I think I miss her. You? And so people are like, Well, this is what I said ago. I thought that's what you said. Do you know who I am? And, you know, I'm Larry, thinking about the situation in my head right now. No, no. But we were in the same room at the same place at the same time, minding our business. You want to say that? That's very interesting. And, you know, just leave it there. Just leave it there. Right. And it can it can involve an invite, like people being like, no, no, I didn't mean to offend you. I didn't say I was offended. Don't put that on me. I was like, I can see that, that you might not know something because we've been having you been in my same space this whole time, yet you are having these thoughts. So my question is, is my presence threatening you? You know, and then they're like, no, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Great. Your presence doesn't threaten me. So there that is one way. That is a very social way in a larger way when you are dealing with more structures and institutes. It sounds more similar. So this is where I get into motivational interviewing skills. So I used to be a social worker caseworker. I worked in the field of HIV as a case manager, and I I've had to diagnose people. I've also had to help people through all of that emotional process. And so I have the skill of a motivational interviewing, emotional intelligence based off of that. And what I found is a lot of people love talking about themselves. And I and this is why it's important, because in large rooms, I open questions like, all right, this may be redundant to some, but how many of you love your family right now? Like I love my family. All right, great. What do you love about your family? People like. Wow. I'm like, I promise I have a point. Problem is that just go with it. And I use there's a level of charm, I am told. I also just use my character like I'm not afraid to ask goofy questions or say I messed up. So I'm like, I will be the butt of the joke if I know you're learning. But I won't be the butt of the joke if you're going to make me a fool. And so there you answer the question by opening up a very easy statement. And then I'm like, I love my family, too. Now, how many of have that have a sibling? Right? And the like? Raise your hand like, no. They're my single. There are single children up here. You're always the single siblings, right? And so you're breaking you're breaking on the ice before you can take a step forward. Because if you already go in with a level of barrier, you can't move past that. You can't, you can't do it. So we let we level the playing field. And I choose family as one of the things because that's the way people connect. And somebody like, I hate my family, I'm like, I had an uncle like that, too. I had him too. So you're not alone. And then we finally get to the meeting. So that meeting could be yet. It could be learning about communication styles. It could be like the workplace culture can learn about diversity, inclusion. It can learn about relationship building. It can be about pleasure. It can learn about all so many healthy relationships and dynamics. Like there is so many things you can learn when you start breaking down something that doesn't even work. I've heard people use sports as a metaphor. I'm not a sports person, so you'll never hear me being like, Yeah, I like baseball and I know. So those are techniques to finally engage your audience to be like how serious you want to go. And you can ask that how serious you all want to be today. How serious, how serious do you want to take this serious conversation? And people, when you give them that permission to answer, they're like. They're like looking around. They're all looking at their boss. To be honest, if you want my honest opinion. But you're just and then I'm just like And then sometimes I go, if, you know, think and this is a rhetorical question. Rhetorical question to me is like, if someone wasn't in the room, would it help you speak better? If there was somebody in the room, would help you speak better. And then all of a sudden people are thinking they're getting their gears, thinking, we haven't even touched what we're talking about yet today. But those are ways that we have to engage with people to get them on the same page. So it doesn't sound like a rhetoric. Something that we've been through or done through. It's I take a stance of being vulnerable and authentic. So then somebody who leaves that room goes, I'm going to be vulnerable and authentic because I saw what that looked like. You didn't have to tell me. I saw it.

Britt East [00:42:06] It's like by virtue of your way of being in the world, you're disarming through your authenticity, through your vulnerability and through technique honed over years of experience in the workplace and your educational experience, etc. Like you alluded to, it's this combination, this beautiful combination of skills that you have that you're able to use, that that you know in your bag of tricks and your techniques to align to your empowered choice of choosing to connect and in relationship with others to to broker those relationships and foster those like those first moments when we're kind of sizing each other up, you know, how on guard do I need to be? And you have this charming way of of disarming people so that they can feel safe and seen and more free to share and thereby experience the healing that you're ultimately going to provide to them. And that's that's absolutely it's absolutely beautiful. And I think, like, I keep kind of beating the dead horse here. It kind of comes back, keeps coming back to choice and relationship. You know, it's like I am, you know, whether or not you're conscious of it as you're doing it, it might be so intuitive at this point because you've been doing it so long. You've invested in yourself in so many different ways, and you're able to bring all of this to bear in the moment to connect with people for a greater good. One of the things that I hear about from audience members of this show is a desire to help and a frustration at wanting to know how, you know. And and as a counterpart, you know, the word ally is kind of become a dirty word in some circles because it can feel performative and it's like just a way protection racket to like slap a label on myself and not actually have to do any work and not actually help a community. But I believe that there's a lot of good people let's, you know, move the the phonies off to the side for the sake of argument. I believe there's a lot of good people who just don't know how don't have the words. They don't want to be counsel, quote unquote. They don't want to be embarrassed. They don't want to put their foot in the mouth. They don't want to say the wrong thing out of preserving your dignity, our dignity, the you know, whomever they're talking about, the they're sheepish. They're shy. We're in our social media silos. We're losing the capacity to relate and to wade into these awkward spaces and have these difficult conversations. So my question to you is, like, what can we all do to create these safe spaces in our everyday lives? Like you're you're a technician. You know, you're hired as a consultant or a speaker or an author or whatever. You have a specific mission in a moment, but you also are a person with a day to day life. And so what can you know, we mean we may not all have your chosen profession in our lives, but we're we all share that the similar social experiences. So what can we all do just in a normal, everyday world to cultivate explicitly create these safe spaces?

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:45:23] So I have to write these down so they don't lose my head because I have three things that are coming to the minds. And so the first one I will have to say is why. Why do you need a safe space? What is your reasoning for it? What is your purpose? Because a lot of times lately what I've heard out is that we need a safe space. We need a crazy space. And one of the things I learned about. So why, when you ask someone why that said it, they go, because someone told you, because someone told you you needed it. You don't know why you need it. Someone told you. How do you know we're not already in a safe space? And so asking why. What is the what is the purpose? Why? Like we're in the workplace. Why do we need when we're at a college, why do we need one? We're in a room right now where we're talking about our feelings and sex positivity. Why do we need it? Why who? And then who is also going with the why? Who's creating it? Safe space for who? Because one of the things I tell people, I was like, I've had people look at me and go, This is a safe space. I was like, I do not feel safe around you. And one bit you could say, I think I can say anything here. Absolutely not. Isn't that this is not a safe space for me? And also, when we think about safety, I've learned people don't actually know what safety means. They think it's just physical harm. And I'm like, there is also emotional and psychological harm. There's cyber harm like cyber safety. Cyber safe spaces is a thing, and that's meaning who you're texting, how you're texting, when you're texting, where you're texting, messaging, sharing posts, sharing things. People see it everywhere because when we show one thing and we're doing it in all these other places, we're going to see it because any place you go into, you're bringing all your whole baggage with you. Yes, we say it, leave it at the door. And what we mean is we just don't want you to unpack it in front of us. You can bring it with you, but I ain't here to. I'm here to help you unpack. It's safe for you to just leave it there. Just like mine. I put mine in the cubbyhole right over There it is. You can put it right next to yours. If you need help packing, though, don't call me. And so that is where I think safe space is. Go. No, it's safe for us. When we I say, if you think it's safe to bring my most authentic self, the thing I'm going to let you know. Why are you giving me that permission? Why are you giving me permission to be my Mozart? I don't need your permission. I just do it. Your reaction is what I'm going to focus on. Because your reaction is going to let me go. You didn't want this. You thought you wanted this. And then I tell people, do you want people to bring their authentic self or their best self? Because our best self isn't always our authentic selves. Because how I talk with friends and loved ones, if they people are really wanting me to bring that to this space, they wouldn't be ready for it. Because in certain spaces, this is me. Hi, everyone. Kelly. Right. Like, that's my best self. You're getting the best self to know. Like when they go, you speak so good. Thank you. You probably haven't heard how I speak with my friends because they don't think I speak well. So my first website, My first one is my Why? Why? Why do you need to save space? Why do we need to be there when it comes to allyship? And when you start establishing and answering why? Like you really got to answer the why and with who and for who. The second one is you. There are certain situations you should always have a safe space like and I can think of like when I when I do a session called Don't Get My Yam and we talk about sexual behavior, that's a safe space. Like I, I am the controlling. There's always a controller of safe spaces. So just keep that in mind. In those spaces, I we laid down the ground rules. We're like, we ain't that the whole the little name of the session is called Don't Get by. Do not judge someone for what they like. And what happens, though, that is a safe space that we need, but we need brave spaces as well. And so brave spaces when we allow conversations that are going to sound yucky and uncomfortable, but yet they are movement, they are empowering. And those are conversations when we're able to say, you know what? This happened a year ago and it affected me this way, but nobody asked me how I was feeling or doing. But in that space, we're allowed to bring those up in that we don't as human beings. We don't ask people how people feel are doing enough in in situations and in leadership. Anyone that's a leader out there, if you don't ask the people that are your underneath you or with you or How are you, I don't like calling whoever your people are. I don't like calling them followers or whoever your people are as leaders if you don't ask them. How they are feeling or doing in general. Listen, you're not a leader to me. I'm sorry. You don't fall in the form of authentic leader because leaders create brave spaces. Leaders are able to look at them and say, we're going to create a brave space here. And I want to go. You seem very uncomfortable with this person. Would you want to talk more? And you add that consent in there, you had that permission. A leader provides that space to be for that person to be brave and vulnerable without feeling judged. And that is where the safety comes in. So when you are creating safe spaces, you have to create raises. They have to be together most of the time. The last thing, though, that came up the answers for allyship is so many times and this is I wish I should just get it on a T-shirt at this point. Are you more worried that I'm going to be offended or are you more worried that you're going to disrespect me? Because people I liked people. I was like, I'm not offended. In fact, I'm still here. In fact, what you said didn't re race my existence because you can't erase something that is literally in front of you. So I'm confused where you think the offense is coming from. But what I think you should be thinking about is your own, your own self and situation and statue of how you are respecting the person in front of you because you should never follow the golden rule of treat people the way you want to be treated. Absolutely. That is terrible advice. You should be treating people the way they want to be treated. That is respect. And when you have respect, you also need responsibility. You have to be a person that has the ability to respond. Responsibility. And if you have the ability to respond and you take respect, your response to a person should be respectful and honest and transparent and open. That is where allyship really comes in when I teach that, because as much as I love giving people a list of here are all the skills you can do, but are you really able to use these skills? Probably not, because you won't pay attention to the fact that you have the responsibility to react to someone based off of the respect. And I've taught people that and I go, If you're fearing that you're going to offend me, you're only reacting in fear. You're not reacting in love, you're not reacting in responsibility, you're not reacting out of kindness. You're reacting out of fear because I'm offended. And so many people I hear say, but I want to I just don't want to upset anyone. So upset them. Are you afraid to make a mistake? We make mistakes all the time. Have you offend them? You then react and say, You know what? That's my bad. That's my responsibility and accountability. I now have to put back on myself. And we don't do that enough. We don't do that as allies. That's what we should be doing. Because when we look at fragility or fragile ness of ourselves, that's where it comes from. And that's not just learned for queer communities, that's learned for a lot of different, marginalized and historically excluded communities. So to answer your questions, those are three ways that, you know, allies can be allies, but.

Britt East [00:53:00] A lot of it. I mean, you got me thinking about so many different things. I just. Wow. You know, I just so completely agree with you about our aversion to messiness, the intrinsic messiness of human relations. Humans are messy, and there is no time when we will have it all together. There is no time where it will have a perfect sheen unless we're pretending. And that's that's what so many of us want to the the veneer. But real relationships involve the ups and downs that you alluded to. When we make when we make mistakes, invariably, probably every day we get to practice apologizing, we get to practice repairing the relationships, we get to practice, making amends, making reparations, etc.. And by the way, those are good skills at the societal level, at the cultural level. And if so, we practice them as individuals. We're probably more empowered to practice them as people. So I just I absolutely love all of that. And the whole from safe space to brave space metaphor. And it's so clearly aligned to me with the beginning of our conversation around your story about choosing to be brave even when even in moments of experiencing fear, because you're also consistently choosing to be human and to transcend your aversion to uncomfortable situations and awkward conversations. So no wonder you're so good at it in, you know, the as it, you know, practice technician but also in your in your everyday life. So the way that you laid it out what part of what I loved about was because it was so doable for all of us, instead of worrying about an award or a label, being blessed with the label of align, get a little pin on your little brooch, on your sweater you can wear, Hey, I'm an ally. It's more about honoring the fact that like, Hey, I make mistakes. I'm a flawed human and I'm practical and I get to practice cleaning up after them. And that's what real relationship is about. Like you said, I cannot erase you by saying something incorrectly, you know, And. And if I. If I cause offense, I can I can apologize. And that's something that all of us can do. In fact, five year olds do it every day. So it's actually not a higher order thinking, you know, it's five year olds are real good at saying they're sorry and then jumping back on the swing set together in the water off a duck's back. So, yeah, of course. I could just talk to you all day. Can you tell our audience members and like I said, we're going to give a list of all your links and your social handles in the show notes so nobody has to jot anything down. But just in general, how can folks work with you? Learn more about your work, approach you, whether they're an institution, an organization and an individual. How can how can folks experience more of you.

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:56:13] So how they can experience me? Well, the thing is, if you're blessed to see me in public places, Jeffrey, come say hi. I get so many people were like, I saw you and I was too nervous. And I'm like, Why? I was like, Could you say like, because you own your shit? And I go, Okay, so come on your shit with me. Like, I don't know. What do you mean? Like, we could just we could talk for about five seconds if we could. That's the idea. And if you see me, come say hello. On a one level, you go to juice with jake.com. You can also email me at Jake at you see, with Jacob, I do have Instagram and all that handles. So honestly, just follow all of that reach out. I'm also one of those people, if anyone ever wants to work with me asking is the best policy, like I am just like you. We both want to do business. It is. It is a relationship. It is a relationship. It's two people that want the same thing. You want to hire me? I want to be hired. Love that motto. But one thing I actually besides just like how to find me is if you want to always think of me. Which is okay. But if you want to think about the light or the understanding of positivity, that I would love leaving people because when I hear people like, how can people find you, follow you or look you up, I go. When you look at life as a place to thrive in and a place to overcome your challenges, not in a sense to grow, but in the sense that is the same thing as when you are overcoming life barriers or challenges the obstacles. You will find that I will be there because I always have a solution. I will always have a listening ear. I will always be a person on a humanistic level that I, I will always be in a way when you can find me or look me up just to be a person that will understand and listen to you. And yes, people like that sounds like a lot of emotional labor. And I don't want to set enough barriers up for myself that if I can't have that conversation, at least, you know, it was saw and heard. And so with that, you can use all the things in the world, but there's only one name that you should always know, and that's my name is Jacob Kelly.

Britt East [00:58:30] I love thank you so much for being on the show today. It was such a pleasure to me to get to know you more, hear some of your story. I really, really appreciate it.

Mx. Jacob Kelley [00:58:39] Thank you for having me. I loved being here. I don't know if I have any last minute thought. You know, paying paying taxes, don't eat yellow snow. I'm a Capricorn. Whatever the other things you need to know. Also, I know one thing, one thing that I also will say or this was something I think we talked about off this chat a little bit, was about how queer sex can save lives in the some in this same self or save lives. And I the thing I want to think about in the moment of our conversation that's resonating with me is that you save lives in the sense of how you. Respond in kindness. And when you respond in patients and when you respond and passion. Passion is what I call your anger. But angered as always, come from a place of hurt or harm. Anger comes in the place of wanting to be better. And that is where passion comes in. And so when you respond in different ways, be mindful. Because you could actually help somebody grow and love and thrive. You can do the opposite and harm them. So always know where you're at and know is who you are, where you are at.

Britt East [00:59:57] Absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much, Mx. Jacob Kelley for being such a wonderful future guests. We're so happy to have you. Dear listeners, you have made it through another episode of Not Going Quietly. We cannot do this without you. Thank you so much for all your love and support. Keep the messages coming. Let us know your comments. You can find us on socials on our website, as you know. Don't hesitate to get in touch with us. Suggest guests. Comment on previous guests. We love to hear from you. Until next time. My name is Britt East, host of Not Going Quietly. Bye bye.

Britt East [01:00:31] You've been listening to Not Going Quietly with your host, Britt East. Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy. Check out our show notes for links. Additional information and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.