Integrating Shame With Mike Iamele

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Brett East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us for some courageous conversation because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Hello everyone, welcome to not going quietly, a podcast for outraged optimists all over the world and heartbroken healers looking to have conversations that everybody wants to listen to but maybe doesn't want to talk about. This is the podcast for you. I'm here with my amazing co-host Jonathan Beal. My name is Britt East. Jonathan, how the heck are you today?

Jonathan [00:00:52] I'm good. I'm good. Things are looking up. It's getting a bit warmer now.

Britt [00:00:56] Jonathan, Jonathan, Jonathan, Jonathan. The last time we did this, we had I had a bit of an intervention because in the US, as I've told you, see Jonathan is from the UK, Mike, so he doesn't know how we do this in the US. When I ask you how you're doing, you say what? "Perfect and improving."

Jonathan [00:01:13] Oh yes, I forgot. Yes, I forgot that we're supposed to hide that stuff. You hide. We really mean it when we ask. Yeah, how about you? How are you today?

Britt [00:01:25] I am perfect and improving. It's a rote response, and we don't actually want to exchange any information or energy. I'm perfect and improving. Now, we can go about our day. Fabulous. Let's do that. Yeah, of course. I don't want to delay any longer. I'm so excited that Saturday on the show we have Mike Iamele. He's, you know, one of my very favorite people. I feel like I'm his biggest fan. I joke with him about that. For nearly a decade, Mike Iamele has been helping hundreds of people integrate great shame and figure out what they subconsciously do every time they're successful through a process called sacred branding. In 2014, Mike accidentally came out to millions when he wrote an article about falling in love with a man after identifying as straight (insert gay gasp there) and 100,000 people shared it overnight. That's crazy. He's also the author of "Enough Already: Create Success on Your Own Terms" from Cannery Press, 2015. Mike shares his provocative and vulnerable take on sexuality and shame, and hundreds of magazines and podcasts, including NPR, CBS and The Huffington Post. Mike, we're so happy to have you. Thank you for joining us.

Mike [00:02:42] Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Britt [00:02:44] Wonderful. Wonderful.

Jonathan [00:02:48] We're going to dig in. We're going to cut to the chase. We need to get straight to it. Let's do it.

Britt [00:02:58] We don't mince words here. I mean, it's like, I think with some of our guests there wanting a long wind up and we don't really do that. I do that with Jonathan at the beginning because I already know what he thinks about everything. But when it comes to our guests, it's like we want to go straight for it. So, you know, when I was first getting to know you Mike, one of the things that stood out to me about your work was on is on sexual shame. And I guess the way I had approached this in my personal life, my personal growth and development process, was that shame is bad. It's icky. I don't like it. I want to get rid of it. I want to eradicate it. If I'm being nice and I'm working with a therapist or a coach, I might say I want to release it. But really, I just want to make it go away. I don't like it. I want to feel good again. And so what was unique about your take and I want you to kind of expound on it and walk us through it is like, you're like, No, that's all backwards. Shame is meant to be integrated, because then it can be like a superpower or something. I don't really know, you're going to have to help me out. I'm clearly confused.

Mike [00:04:08] I love this. Shame provides such a paradox for us, right? Because shame is this idea that some part of us is wrong. Some part of our experience is wrong. But then we say that the shame is also wrong. So it's a really complicated situation where we're like, Oh, that's wrong, and we have shame about the shame. And then what do we do when we've done tons of self work? We have shame about the shame, about the shame, and it just keeps spiraling whether I should do better. I've talked to my therapist and we break that up over and over. And there's this concept I talk about called the shame-praise dichotomy, which basically means that everything in life like we see this line, we call it the divinity line or the purpose line. Everything that's conditioned gets split into praise or shame. So if I learn, if I grow up learning about, let's say, being queer is shameful and being straight and cis is praiseworthy, there's a split there. And the extent to which the praise goes up, the same counterpoint goes down, right? Shame goes down. So the more I'm tied into that, that's my identity. I've got even more shame. Now we have this about everything in life. And the trick is, not only do we have to integrate that shame, but we have to release our attachment to the praise to be able to actually get back to who we are and the unique contribution we have in life. And so, so much of my work is really about understanding why you feel what you do. I mean, that's what the word purpose means, right? It means why? I mean, the reason I want to know if you feel shame about this. Why? What's going on there? What are you sensitive to? How do you experience life uniquely and subjectively? That is, explain that. And then we get to have fun with it. Now we get to bring it in. We get to masturbate, saying, Hey, we got to. I mean, there's so many ways we're going to talk today about playing with shame and realizing that it's part of us. There's a reason you feel that very shame. And when we understand that reason, we can integrate it and realize it's the same reason that we have amazing sex, that we're good at our job, that we attract love into our life, everything we do because it's what we're sensitive to.

Britt [00:06:12] Well, I mean, that was amazing. There's so much in there, Jonathan. It's like I warned you, he's really, really smart.

Jonathan [00:06:21] I feel like I should have a really poignant question to that. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm kind of thinking.

Mike [00:06:30] Yeah, can I take the reins and convince you further about this idea of sensitivity? Because it sounds complicated, right? What the hell are you talking about, Mike? And so a lot of times people will come up to me and say, Oh my God, Mike, I figured out my life purpose. I'm meant to be a life coach. This happens all the time, right? And so, oh, that's fantastic. But here's the thing if you can achieve it, it also implies you can fail at it, and that doesn't make sense, you can't fail a purpose. And if you can achieve it implies you didn't have it at a certain point. So did you just not have a purpose as a baby? That doesn't make sense. And what about your job and your relationship and your friendship and your trauma and your sexuality? Like life, coach doesn't really explain everything. And I say, here's the thing. A life coach is a beautiful container for your purpose. It's a way that you feel purposeful. That's fantastic. But your purpose has got to be the water inside. It's not the cup, it's the water. And so what did you have? Let's get curious, what did you have when you were a baby? You didn't have accomplishments. You may not even had language yet, but you had one thing you had sensitivities. Every baby is sensitive to things. Some babies are really sensitive to music. Some babies are really sensitive to connection. They love looking their mom in the eyes. Some babies are sensitive to freedom, and they just feel trapped in that swamp. And they want to get out every baby has a different experience of life. And let's take that baby who is sensitive to connection a baby sensitive to connection as they grow up, they are going to be really sensitive when their mom doesn't pay attention to them. Well, look them in the eyes they're going to be really sensitive to when they're feeling left out. These are the people who are great at bringing everybody together and, you know, building community because they know what it's like to not have community. These are the people who are going to have amazing sex when they have eye contact. These are the people who are going to want closeness and cuddling the way they experience. Life is fundamentally different, and it's going to start coloring all the things about their life. Now, if you take someone who's sensitive to connection and you leave them out, that's where their shame is going to be highly predictable, where they're going to have shame. And then they're going to say, Oh my God, and I can't even connect with people. And then they have the shame about the shame. And we all fall down that spiral, don't we? "I can't tell my therapist about this because they're going to judge me." But the thing is, our shame is subjective because everything in our life is subjective. And if you know who you are. Everything starts to be a tool to discover yourself more, including your shame. Your shame could be the key to the best sex of your life, the most purpose for your life, the best job of your life. And that's what we want to do today.

Britt [00:09:03] So it's like it all starts with the sensitivities, like you said, that are inborn. We come out with this array of maybe a handful of sensitivities that kind of shape our lives, or maybe are the template for our lives, our approach to the world, and based on our family conditioning or cultural conditioning, the mass media environment, all of that. Some of those we might start to internalize a variety of messages that we then I'm starting to get lost here, Mike, where it's like discarded into shame or something.

Mike [00:09:45] Exactly, exactly. You're totally getting it. So, you know, one thing we can think about is that there's an infinite universe out there, right at any given moment, including this one right now. There is infinite stimuli around me, right? I'm seeing things. I'm hearing things. I'm talking to you, I'm listening to you. I'm using my intuition, my emotions. That's a lot. We're all processing it based on what we're sensitive to. So what I sense literally means what I experience. It's what I see taste, touch, smell, hear deeper than anyone else. You know, I'm going to give you a story because I think this is really helpful. So I remember years ago I was at my office job when I worked in public relations and my receptionist was crying. I walked over to her. I saw that she was crying. And so I walked by her boyfriend and I said, Hey, you know, she's crying. You might wanna check on her. And he said, "No, she's not crying. I was just talking to her." I said, "No, she doesn't have tears streaming down her face, but she's crying. I can see the vulnerability in her eyes." And he said, "I don't see what you're talking about." And I realized, Oh, I literally see things you don't see. I experience the world differently than you do based on what I'm sensitive to. And that starts to color my experience of something. So what I'm going to be ashamed of, it's going to be very different than what you are going to be ashamed of.

Britt [00:10:56] So where does the shame kick in? I like that example was so crystal clear the way you describe that. I love that where I got a little lost is like, OK, so is the shame like maybe the embarrassment I feel that we're different?

Mike [00:11:10] So gosh, there is any number of places. I mean, shame for me is the belief that I wish some part of myself or some part of my experience was dead and gone. I just wish this wasn't there, so I could have shame around, you know, why am I sensitivities of successful shame around feeling like a failure? Believe me, I have been there and back. Right. So any small failure I'm going to have access shame around because I'm extra sensitive to that. I can have shame around the opposite end, which is being successful. You're being too arrogant, you're conceited. So I could have shame around that end of it, which I do very often. I could have shame around you. How successful does that person think I am or not? There is going to be some shame. I could have shame around in the middle of going back to sexuality because we're talking about today, is this sex to like, am I being too focused on the outcome and the success of and when something doesn't work out? Or am I being arrogant and showy? Or let's take another sensitivity of mind zany. Am I being too crazy? Too much, too loud, too intense any time? Here's some keywords for us to note. Too much and not enough are great indicators of shame because what those are saying is that I'm wrong. And here's the irony about that is if I had, you know, let's say, a gallon of water and I try to pour that gallon of water in a tiny little cup and spilled all over the floor, I wouldn't scream and shame the water for being too much. I would get a bigger pot. It just makes sense. But how often do we say, "Oh, you know, I'm too much, I'm too loud, I'm too passionate." What we're missing in that sentence is just that I'm too loud for this person in this container. What we're saying is it's just the wrong container for us. And so often nowadays, because I am too much a thousand different ways, thank God, but in some moments, much of my life I had a lot of shame around it. Nowadays, when someone says, you know, Mike, you're too much or too passionate, you're too loud, you're too crazy. I say, "Thank you for letting me know that this isn't the right container for me. Let me go find the container that actually can hold me."

Jonathan [00:13:07] Yeah, this is really cool, right? Because then it becomes your compass. Right?

Mike [00:13:13] Exactly. And you know, when we start to bring up sexual shame because we all have sexual shame, right? We live in this incredibly sexually repressed, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, transphobic society, right? So there is no shortage of shame that we can have around sexuality. This is where things start to get really fun. One of my favorite exercises is we can actually like, let's say we're watching porn or masturbating, or we're reading an erotic story, speak words out loud. Now, any time you hear your own voice, it's a lot. We really hear this, you know, it suddenly becomes alive for us, and we have to reckon with that. So if I'm saying like, you know, "Oh, I really like this, I have to reckon with that number one." And then let me bring in the shame about that and literally say those words out loud.

Britt [00:14:07] OK wait a second, you're blowing my mind here. I have to slow down here. So you're telling me that as we're actually having sex, OK, I get verbal, like with dirty talk and stuff. That's cool. But you're saying it's like, I can bring my shame not only into the bedroom in my mind, but I can actually verbalize that shame to my partners, like as we're having sex?

Mike [00:14:30]  So everyone starting out, I know this is pretty advanced. Yeah, you guys get straight to it and that's how I go. No preheating the oven over here. So you start with yourself, if you are not comfortable talking to a partner about this. Feel free to start with masturbation and just speak out loud like what you're thinking. Literally narrate. Say like that man is putting his penis there and this is like, say that. And then, here's the key, add in any shame that comes up. So say, I can't believe this shit turns me on, or like, Oh my god, I can't believe this guy's body, or I'm dirty, or whatever it is. And allow yourself to eroticize that, because what starts to happen is we're now integratingz. It's becoming part of our experience. It's been there the whole time, which is presence. And yet and to your point, Britt, you know, if I'm having sex with my husband, let's say this is a beautiful option. I mean, shame is such a beautiful tool to work with. I can say like, Holy shit, I can't believe you think I'm sexy in this position. I feel like ugly in this position, but you still want to fuck me in this position. Or like, what would this person say if they walked in right now and they saw me doing this? I feel so dirty, and now I'm allowing intimacy to occur because I'm allowing this person to see parts of me that they couldn't see otherwise, and I'm allowing shame to be a connecting point.

Jonathan [00:15:54] It sort of strikes me that there's an element of humor in this too, right? Yeah, I've long said that sex without humor is kind of pointless. If I can't laugh while having sex with someone, it's the wrong person. And so there is an element almost of taking the sting out of the shame because it gets to be a fun experience, rather than a serious one.

Mike [00:16:15] Totally. And shame is sexy, right? We know shame releases dopamine. We know that it actually does turn us on as our bodies are hardwired to work through shame. There's about equal amounts of dopamine release from shame or praise. You go back to that shame phrase that caused me. I talked about, and now we're cooking. So can we relate?

Britt [00:16:34] I'm sorry. Let me interrupt, because you're saying shame is sexy. Like, I spent all of my life thinking shame hurts. You just blew me away that shame is sexy.

Jonathan [00:16:51] Say more about that. Flexibility is sexy, right? That's the thing.

Mike [00:16:55] And if you think about this, like how many look at fetishes in general, fetishes are all around shame, right? We've got fetishes around, you know, mommy and daddy issues fetishes around body fat issues around. I mean, there's so domination submission, you know, so many of these fetishes around the things that collectively we just kick to the shadows because we can't deal with it as a society. And then they come out in other ways, because we're always trying and will always try to claim parts for ourselves. And the one time in our lives when we have the least control is during sexuality, when we are turned on. I mean, during an orgasm we have no control. We're ugly. We make facial expressions. We make sound. Our body just moves. It's that moment of complete release of ego, release of self. And so, of course, all the stuff we've kicked to the shadows is going to start coming up in those moments. Please.

Jonathan [00:17:47] Question because because whilst yes, it's true that during sex, we are in less control. What about those of us who are clinging on for control during sex for dear life? Because it's a terrifying experience and we're worried we're not going to perform, and we're worried we like how do you actually get to the point where you're losing control if you're trying to stay in control the entire time?

Mike [00:18:12] Absolutely. So, you know, for many of us, if we can get there, the point of orgasm is a point of complete loss of control. But everything else might be super controlled. And in fact, the more control of the beginning part is the less likely an orgasm or a good orgasm is to happen. So we see this correlation here. So part of it is allowing ourselves to fully embrace what we're most sensitive to, and that's where I always start. You know, if I know I'm sensitive to vulnerability right away before I have sex with somebody, I will say, you know, for me, sex is a place of vulnerability. I might say some weird shit and you got to go with it. And if you can't, that's not good sex for me. I've had so many times my husband would say to me, Is that true? What you said? It's like, I have no idea. I was orgasmic. It doesn't matter. It was a shame about saying it. That's the point that matters. So for me, vulnerability is got to be there zaniness and being weird has got to be there. But that's not true of everybody. For some people, I know connected, let's go back there. Eye contact has got to be there. So for this person, they want to look their partner deeply in the eyes. And as they feel that connection, they're going to feel more empowered to speak up or share things they may not have before.

Britt [00:19:21] OK, I think I'm getting it. I think something just clicked for me in your last story where it's like, OK, we have these sensitivities and you have associated various words with the sense that they're almost like archetypes in a way. But you've associated these words which have a certain level of potency with them that are very evocative. So when I when I learn what my sensitivities are, that these words can almost be triggers into this, this insight into my, into my self, my orientation to the world, how the world occurs to me. And that because I know, like Jonathan said, I know that vulnerability is sexy and enhances sexual intimacy that by my awareness and attunement into into those words, my sensitivities, in other words. And I can then share them vulnerably with my partner. Not only explicitly. Maybe before sex, as you were saying, part of foreplay, I can embody them in the way that we have sex and exude that. And then I can also maybe do some, I'll call it like shadow work, like when you were talking about verbalizing sexual shame like I can say, "I'm so slutty. I can't believe I like it when you do X, Y or Z," and that kind of stuff. And so it brings this full continuity of this spectrum of of vulnerability that's like mind, body spirit, heart centered. It's hitting us on every level, thus elevating the experiences that kind of in the ballpark.

Mike [00:20:46] I love it. So we talked about beginning that shame provides interesting paradox because it's saying some part of us is wrong, but we want to say the shame is wrong, right? What you're talking about is bringing it all together more of ourselves as they are in the moment. And I want to take us outside of sex for a moment because sex has so many triggers and I want to go into a different experience, which is having coffee with a best friend. Hmm. Because we've all have this experience of having coffee with a best friend at a coffee shop when we have nothing to do that day. We've got some free time and hours fly by and genius just spills out of us and we feel like we could talk all day long. And we don't even think we forgot to be insecure or we forgot to stumble over our words. That's what we're talking about in that moment. What's happening? What is lighting up your sensitivities, that making that's making you feel so confident and free and yourself? I love when I talk to people about confidence and people tell me there's nowhere in my life. I feel confident or there's nowhere. I feel free. And then I start asking them about coffee with a best friend, which is always my favorite go. They're like, Well, yeah, that's easy, because I've known that person forever. Was like, OK, so what are you feeling like if we can bottle that up? How do we create a formula which is what you're sensitive to that we then can bring into other moments because I personally want sex and business and podcast interviews to feel like coffee with the best friend. I want to feel like I'm just showing up. I'm being myself and being myself for me happens to be a little bit zany, a little bit vulnerable of a successful little bit of wine. All these pieces that I can bring in, like you said, it verbally, explicitly, you know, non-verbally, subconsciously, intuitively, emotionally, every part of myself gets to be represented because I am right. And that's really the big message of this. Every part of you is right. Even the shame.

Britt [00:22:33] Well, I know that can't be right. Every part of me is...

Jonathan [00:22:35]  OK, especially like, Go ahead. I just want to add this to it's been on my mind, like and as a Brit. Take full responsibility for this. Our culture is dripping in shame, right? Culture is is shame based and and you know, like I say, we take I take responsibility for this. As a Brit, because I think it started with us for the most part, possibly the Catholic Church, too, but let's not bring religion into it. And so how do such a repressed group of people even begin to unravel the layers and layers and layers of shame that we experience, let alone getting to sex? That's the the pinnacle of shame for us, Westerners, right?

Mike [00:23:30] I love this conversation right now because here's the thing here's what we all want to do. We want to listen to this conversation and say I've got a lot of shame. I'm going to shame myself about that shame and just say that I'm wrong, right? And we all fall right back into that paradox. So here's the cool thing, because I know we have all tried this. I have tried too many times in my life. We try to shame ourselves into changing our behavior, right? We do it all the time like, Oh, you fat ass, you shouldn't eat that or, oh, you, you know, we shouldn't have sex like this. Oh, you shouldn't have shame. You should know better. You've been in self work forever. We all try to do that no matter how hard we try and believe me, I try pretty damn hard. Shame has never been an effective tool for behavior change. It just doesn't work. It doesn't actually work. And the reason it doesn't work is very clear because it doesn't actually approach the need that's trying to be met. It's just we're shaming a technique. We're shaming a strategy to get that need met. But it never actually approaches the need. So if my needs are being met, if I say, Mike, stop eating sugar, but the needs not being met. I'm going to find another way to get that met, and it's probably going to be even more distorted because I haven't given myself an outlet to get the need met. I'm going to say something that's going to whatever. It's going to be big and loud, and I want to say this desires are not fulfilling a need. Their strategy is to meet a need, desires and not the need itself. They are a strategy to fill and fulfill on the well, and I want to give you an example that we're all going to know here, which is my friend is pregnant right now. She desires potato chips a lot. I can guarantee you she does not need potato chips, but she might need so in Yemen, some minerals that are in potato chips. So she desires it because that's where her body is comfortable with. For any of us, any desire, any fetish, any turn on, any anything is speaking to a sensitivity. It's speaking to something we need. And so it's a strategy. It's the best strategy that we know. And I will never, ever let someone take away a strategy unless they can prove to me that that need is a better way. So what I want to say to answer your question is a very long winded way to answer your question, but is that shame is an effective tool for behavior change. So that's not the way to start. The way to start is understanding, because understanding helps us to know what is that need. So if we're sitting here, we're saying I feel shame around sex or I feel shame around this conversation, or I feel shame around whatever my body we say why? Why? What is it? Why in my sensitivities? Predict that. And when we understand that now we can say, Oh, what? I'm really trying to feel is successful, and I feel like in my current body, I can't be successful. But that's a belief that's not true. So how can I stop feeling successful today? Doesn't have to be cutting myself off from certain food? And then it starts to change was the only reason I'm cutting off certain food, let's say, is to feel successful in the first place. So we're kind of going straight to the source. What's the purpose? What's the reason? What are we sensitive to?

Britt [00:26:26] So it's like the shame is not when we when we heap shame on ourselves. We're not addressing the root causes, and the root cause is really our desires, our sensitivities, which represent, that's again, a framework you've developed that represents our approach to the world. It's another way of saying the way the world occurs to us, and that is what we have to change and or even could. It's that our awareness of and in tune to them might help us better understand ourselves, which helps us again and kind of coming back to where we start at the beginning of the episode and somehow incorporate the shame. And I'm a little fuzzy on what that means because it's still part of me feels the pull to be like, OK, then can I just release the shame and let it go because it feels bad and icky? But you're still. I still remember saying no, the shame is good and we want to incorporate and integrate this. Is that right?

Mike [00:27:17] We just we will talk about it. Yes, I want us to. I feel like we've got a little journey. We're going to get to something to talk about incorporating the shame. But first, I want to give you another story because I think stories are so helpful here. So I had a client years ago who was struggling with alcoholism. I'm sure a lot of shame around this and we matter sensitivities. And one of the sensitivities we discovered was enchanted. She's very sensitive to feeling enchanted or disenchanted. And she said, Oh my God, Mike, I just had a light bulb moment that growing up. I was always playing with fairy crowns and making fairy gardens and magic, and I always felt enchanted with light. And then I grew up and I learned that wasn't appropriate for an adult and it just occurred to me. The only time I ever feel enchanted as an adult is when I'm drunk. It's the only avenue I have to get there. And she said, You know, this makes me realize I need to go chase enchantment. I need to go find ways to feel enchanted. Well, she got very involved in spirituality, and she is no longer, you know, she's in recovering recovery right now. And but more importantly than the recovery, she doesn't have shame around it anymore. And that's the biggest piece because she understands exactly why she was doing it. So now it's just about embracing. This has always been about enchanted. It's claiming the part of you. That's true.

Britt [00:28:36] I like the way you said it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that helped for me a lot. And Jonathan chime in, If I'm totally off. It sounds like I think that will ring true for a lot of listeners. And in fact, it's like, I want it on a T-shirt, you said. And maybe I'm getting it wrong. Like, you can claim the parts of you. That's true. Is that the phrase that you use?

Mike [00:28:58] The only thing you've exactly said, the only thing that is true that we know with certainty in this world is our own lived experience, right? There's nothing else I know with certainty. I mean, theories are disproven every day. So I guess I know that with certainty. But I know my own lived experience better than anybody else in the world. How I experience life is what I know to be true. And so if I if that's why sensitivities as I'm conceptualizing them, then that means that I don't, you know, I could, but desires. I love desires or all but claiming desires here. But desires are not a good indicator of truth because desires are two things they're conditioned and they're fleeting. So right now, I desire to talk to you in an hour. I might desire to eat lunch. My time is going to change all the time, but the desires are always speaking to a deeper need of me to be myself. My sensitivity how I experience life. And so my desires might be conditioned like I might learn. Mike, you should want to make a lot of money and be successful in business or whatever. That's a way I can reach success and one the one that I've tried in the past. But the thing about success and this is interesting for me and this really hit the nail on the head for me is I owned a PR agency. I worked with billionaires. I did all this stuff that was supposedly successful. I wrote a book. I've never felt nearly as successful doing any of that as I do on a Sunday, sitting on the couch with my family, not even close to because it's all subjective. And so, so much of our life is deconditioning. What we were told is true the desires we were told we're supposed to want versus what we actually experience. That's the only thing we can know to be true.

Jonathan [00:30:35] There's one. There's something I'm getting caught on.

Mike [00:30:38] Yeah, tell me

Jonathan [00:30:41]  I want to make sure I'm understanding this properly. So if a desire is a strategy to get to meet Matt and that that needs might be a basic needs, right? Like so for instant connection or security or, you know, fraud? Then when we're when we are accepting the shame around that and we're labeling the desires as a thing, but I can't get my head around is there's an element of desire for change. An element of I need to change the desire to get the result. And so the bit I can't get my head around is, doesn't that come with a certain amount of judgment around the original desires?

Mike [00:31:28] Totally. So this is a really great question. So we're getting into this whole kind of conversation about why this duality, it's getting a little bit esoteric. I love this. So you know, what we're really talking about here is that on some level, we're saying the shame is wrong. I want to go is a totally different approach to say that that shame is actually it's maybe the opposite of the desire, but it's telling me about myself. My desire is not wrong either, but my desire. I tell people all the time people will come to me and say, Mike, I'm watching too much porn. I want to stop watching porn, and I say, OK, great, we're going to go straight into the you watching porn and we're going to go explore that deeper. I'm not taking that away from you because I. Until we can prove that that need is a better way. Nothing. I'm taking away from you. I understand you think that you were wrong. You think that you need to change that desire. But that's a strategy now. Everything we do in life has pros and cons, right? I mean, they might have. And basically, when they kind of equalize, then we stop doing it. When the pros and the cons kind of match up, then we're like, Hey, this isn't good. I don't give a shit what strategy you choose or what desire you choose. What I care about is that you get to feel like yourself. And so, so many people think this is a disempowering strategy. And maybe it is. Maybe it is that sometimes what used to be empowering becomes disempowering. But the difference is how you subjectively feel. That's what I care about. What are you experiencing?

Jonathan [00:32:57] So this is much more about reaching a point where you get to make informed decisions about how you get your needs met.

Mike [00:33:05] Yes, it's about you being conscious of what you're sensitive to, why you're feeling the way you are and then making an empowered decision based around that. And it could be anything. I will tell you, sometimes the most empowered decision for me is eating chocolate cake is mindlessly watching TV is all of these things that you might call this empowered. But if it makes me feel my sensitivities, that's the most empowered. Then because I'm the only one experiencing my life.

Britt [00:33:32] At what point does that become self-indulgent? Like, OK, I am watching trashy TV at the expense of, you know, communities that are being underrepresented or misrepresented or, you know, we were all swimming in the sea of supremacy, of white supremacy and straights that, like we talked about, at what point does this? Does this inward work just kind of become like self-indulgent?

Mike [00:33:56] This is a beautiful question. I love this. So two things here. One, we've got a lot of conditioning that we all have to work through, right? Especially that shame phrase dichotomy, right? Because we're not if we're talking about shame, we have to talk about praise the two sides of the same coin. And so if we're talking about privilege, what we're talking about is areas where you have attached to conditional praise, your worthiness conditional based on these attributes, we've got to detach ourselves from that because that's the only way we can get back to that baseline of full subjectivity. So one thing we have to talk about here is doing the work, doing the deconditioning work and recognizing that our the worth we are the social worth or the societal value we got is conditional based on certain conditions. And that's where you have to detach from as well as you're doing the shame. But the second thing I want to talk about is what I sometimes referred to as the widening lens of subjectivity. I know that sounds super clinical and academic, but I'm going to make it easy. So let's say that my arm just got cut off and I'm gushing out blood. I can't possibly worry about your paper cut because I am gushing out blood. My lens of subjectivity is very narrow. It's just focused on my arm. Got some blood when you know I get my tourniquet and I stop the bleeding. It can expand oil and expand a little and expand a little. And eventually, ideally, it expands 360 degrees where I get to take an experience all things and see them for what they are. But I can only do that through my lens of her experience of the world. So if we're taking this conversation to be both sociopolitical and more spiritual, what we're really saying here is that through the lens through which I experience life as I get my needs met and truly feel like myself, I then can expand my vision and focus and see other things. And all the while, I better be doing my deconditioning, work with shame and with praise to recognize where this conditional praise. Because the second I feel whole and I recognize that some of my privileges are conditional, I now have the ability to look outside of myself and say, Hey, you've got a different experience. I'm fall. I want to help you. And I recognize that your shame is also conditional. There's no reason that you should have to feel bad about yourself because of this.

Jonathan [00:36:12] Something else cropped up to me then. What's the role of community in this? Because that was a very subjective experience, a very I'm dealing with me. Once I'm there, I'll embrace everybody. But what is the role of community in this process?

Mike [00:36:26] Yeah, it's I mean, it's my belief that every single person you know, we have energy medicine for one another. We have healing for one another and we need, quite frankly, one another. There are things. There are days when my sensitivities, I just can't get there on my own. But my husband, through his sensitivities, can get me there through his right. That's this ability he can activate and light me up. And so what we're really doing as we're widening that lens of subjectivity is we're able to connect deeper. We're able to start to have conversations about, Hey, this is what I need from you and the cool thing. When we start releasing shame, when we start tapping into our own power is we have this self worth to ask for what we actually need, not in the passive aggressive way that many of us do it in a very direct and clear way. We also then have the strength and ability to offer our skills, and we're clear about our skills. That's the thing I think we talk about, especially in the world today, of staying in your own lane. I think there's a lot of pressure on people and people feel pressure to do something that's not in their skill set or expertize or in their lane. And so understanding what am I sensitive to? How can I contribute? How can I make this world a better place? And the way that only I can my unique gifts, it's really helpful because I don't know about you. But when I am working outside of my expertize, I get exhausted and resentful or. Really easily. And when I do, what comes naturally to me, like hopefully this conversation, it's energizing and it feels effortless again, like coffee with a best friend.

Britt [00:37:58] OK, let me kind of recap because we have covered so much ground here. And Mike, please tell me if I'm getting this wrong. So again, we have we're all born with this innate set of sensitivities to which you've kind of excavated a kind of a philosophy around and applied some language to that's really evocative and helps people attached to them and understand their role in their lives. And we'll kind of delve into that in a minute. So we have this course as set of sensitivities that then changes our approach to the world. It helps us be more fully ourselves, be more fully expressed in a way that helps us then attend to our own needs to fill our cups such that we may then build community, go out and serve the world, love others more deeply. And that is that widening lens of subjectivity. I think you called it where is basically one. So I attend to my own pain and suffering and desires and wants and needs. Then I can, you know, to the degree that I'm doing that is the degree to which I can afford to attend to the needs of others and make the world a better place. But it all starts with the sensitivities and expands outward from there. Did I get that right?

Mike [00:39:16] Yes. Beautifully, except for one little caveat, which is that, you know, we don't have to just focus on ourselves and nobody else like it. It's a dance that's happening here. So it's not like, Oh my god, I am perfect a there's no such thing, so we don't have to wait. Now I can say helping people, right? It's kind of if my arm is cut off and I'm gushing blood. I can't worry about your paper. Maybe if I've got my turn, I can focus on this. And so there's a dance going on and we genuinely want to. I mean, I know myself when I feel good and I see somebody suffering, I want to help that person. My natural empathy kicks in because this is the piece about the sensitivities that we need to understand is that they are omni directional. What I mean by that is they go in every direction. It's not just Mike is know vulnerable, so let's make Mike vulnerable. It's Mike is also sensitive to other people being vulnerable. Wine help those most vulnerable. I will tell you, I have to be careful what I say sometimes, but I am secretly behind the scenes, helping a lot of things in my husband's department, in health care who work with the most vulnerable populations. I knew a lot of work behind the scenes there because that's really important to me to help our community and people who are, you know, very vulnerable to different disease states. So that's also what I'm going to feel called to do in the world. Our sensitivity to what we sense deepest. I can see vulnerability that other people can't see. And therefore, I'm going to feel call to help out. And so when we understand that, that helps us to understand our place in the world and where we fit in with community.

Jonathan [00:40:46] Yeah, I think that's refreshing to number of reasons, but mostly because what I see it happening in the self-help slash personal development space these days is I'm not going to do anything for anyone else until I'm safe. I'm with you. I'm never going to be what I do.

Mike [00:41:08] Yeah, and I think that there's even a harmful conditioning within that of like until I'm perfect and I'm thinking, you know, I just got off the phone with the client earlier who is taking antidepressants and try to wean herself off without a doctor's help because of pressure from spiritual communities. Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon thing. I see this when I had a client who has bipolar, diagnosed bipolar disorder and tried to wean herself off lithium and almost made suicide. So this is a very, very common saying. There's a lot of toxic air conditioning out there. I think we all know and understand. And this whole idea that, you know, saying that you are right doesn't mean that you don't need tools. It doesn't mean that you don't need support, doesn't mean that you can't help other people, or that you have to be somehow perfect to be right as you are. Why I love talking about integrating shame. Is it taking on even your Shane's right? I've got shame. Everybody's got shame. That's OK. You're right, as you are today. You don't need to be whole and fix. It's all a continuum of experiencing life. And so, you know, I think this is really important to me to understand that we're not trying to fix ourselves here, even if it means creating shame. What we're doing is saying, I'm right, I'm OK as I am, and I'm going to. Instead of saying part of me feels wrong and bad about this, I can say, Hey, that's cool. Like, I have shame around people thinking that I'm too submissive, but I have shame around people thinking that I'm stupid or whatever it is. And that's OK. Like, I I'll be honest, I've had shame around being a little too goofy and playful, and so I love playing with it. I went to a friend's bachelorette party and I wore a trophy wife all night. And I love it. And, you know, it's allowing ourselves to say it's holidays, we are OK. We're human and that's what makes us beautiful.

Jonathan [00:42:55] Hmm. Yeah, it's really interesting. I see I see the term shameless used as a slight or as a way of demeaning somebody. And actually, we all get a bit more shameless. But exactly as you described it, right, we show up completely and not from a place of I need to hide this about myself. Just a deep acceptance.

Britt [00:43:17] Yeah, stop burnishing our reputations. I mean, we're also micromanaging our social media, kind of polishing our reputations and trying to present this perfected image to the world. You get to be our messy, delightful selves.

Mike [00:43:30] And this all goes right back to that same phrase dichotomy, right? Because if I'm perfect on social media, I get praise for that and the shame I get to hide the shame. So the more I'm praised for being whatever image, even if it's the vulnerable guy, right, you get praise for that. So be careful because even that can be a dangerous slope any time we're attaching part of our worth to conditional praise. Shame is on the flip side of that, and we need to recognize that like I know so many I've worked with, you know, some people who let me say this, if you're a public figure. People think that a lot of times public figures have unlimited confidence. When I can tell you with certainty is that if you are a public figure and you don't feel 100 percent authentic, which let's be honest, who the hell does, then you are going to have less confidence and more shame the more public you get. Reason being is very simple because you are being validated for certain aspects of yourself, certain things you have praise for and you're saying this person, this image is what people love, but they don't love the real me. If they knew the real me, they couldn't love that. And so now, because of that, as the phrase goes up, the shame goes down, right? You see, those mirrored culture points is a very common thing to happen to really do our work. I mean, if your public image is one thing, fine, let it be that. But for your own self work, what we need to realize is detaching our self-worth from the conditional praise and the shame in allowing ourselves to get back to the center where we are right as we are. Even if we feel shame today, that's OK. That everything feels right.

Britt [00:45:03] That's so important. So it's like you said, I just want to recap it because that's another one that could go on a T-shirt as something like as we attach to conditional praise were inadvertently attaching to shame something like that.

Mike [00:45:17] Yeah, I'm the mirror counterpoint. I mean, think about if I think being thin is a good thing than being fat is a bad thing, right? Like every thing we have, every conditioning has these mirrored counterpoints and the extent to which I mean, this is why we talk about narcissism out there. You know, narcissism clinically is associated with deep levels of shame because the extent to which, you know, praise is a good thing. We have those deep levels of shame. I cannot lose if I lose this game. I'm going to feel all of that shame. So I've got to keep winning. I've got to keep doing better. And we have conditional praise because it's interesting. We think that we are wrong. We think that our feelings and beliefs are wrong. But if we pause and we say, You know what? Like, I feel ashamed when sex doesn't go well and I'm just going to sit with that. That's OK, it's OK that I feel I'm not going to have shame about the shame. I'm just going to be OK with that. Now we're bringing it back together. We don't have to be perfect.

Britt [00:46:11] So, Mike, how in the heck do we know what our sensitivities are then? I mean, you've talked so much about, you know, you have this collection of them and that we all have them. But I don't I don't think I got the memo like, where or how do I? You know what our mind? What are they?

Mike [00:46:30] So I've teased it the whole way and giving people nothing. Yeah. So, you know, the thing about sensitive is, number one, I'll tell you, if anyone wants, just like a quick way to map, you can go on my website. It's free. Mike O'Malley dot com slash Mac and AP. And you can go download the worksheet and I'll walk you through it there. But basically sensitivities. We can do a little demo here if you want ten minutes because it takes me two and a half hours in real life, but podcasters don't like that, so I have invented a ten minute way to do it just for people so we can play for a moment. But the way you map sensitivities, I'll just give you the behind the scenes look here. Is that what I'm doing is I'm looking for emotional patterns in your language. So when I'm working with a client for two and a half hours, I'm just going to listen to stories. It's a lot like today, I'm listening to stories, I'm listening to language I want to hear about. It's going to sound like just for fun. I've got a method to my madness, but try, you know, happy moments, sad moments. And then what I do is I paint three visualizations and spit people's language back to them and ask, Would you feel this? Would you feel this? Because what happens is a lot of times we have language that we think is what we feel, but it's not what we actually feel. So I want to make sure that the words they use matches what they feel in their body. We that. Have a list of about 100 words that I ask them with certainty, if you felt all of these words to describe every moment of your life and your purpose. They always say yes, of course they do, because that's the design. Then what I need to do is systematically understand how their mind maps language. So what I'm saying is, if you felt liberated, would you automatically feel free? If yes, it goes under that and what we're doing is condensing Antoine Borella terms. So when I give people five or six words, I don't give a shit. If your words are Sally, Bob and Jim, it's not my life. It's got to be your experiences in your own language. What helps you times stand yourself? And then that that's what I use to help people go forward. Wow, that makes sense.

Britt [00:48:27] Yeah, it's like you have some magic formula through all your training and expertize and experience where it's like you. You sit down with a client and you kind of interview them and and maybe teasing out various stories and anecdotes and pulling out buzzwords and keywords that you can then go back through and and validate and see what resonates and. And you kind of pull together this short list of the most deeply resonant, recurring words and themes. And in that process, and that's their sensitivity, is that

Mike [00:48:59] it's yes, yes, to some extent. Although I'm going to ask that you don't interview, I think I'm a little bit more about that conversation. But yeah, I mean, it's basically it's really simple, you know, we actually tell each other who we are all the time before listening. And so it's really not that complicated to ask somebody, you know, like at the end of, say, session, what would you like to feel? People are going to tell me exactly what they're sensitive to from the get go. And then I'm doing, is watching that pattern I'm watching to, they said they want to feel connected to all of their stories, have some level of disconnection that from all their happy moments of someone, I'm watching their stories as they're telling me, and I'm just noting their language and the pattern and put them through visualizations. It's not hard for me to know what's going to make them feel purposeful, and I'm confirming with their body every step of the way. And I say, All right, and I'm I mean, I'm yelling and screaming, I make it loud, so they're not in their head at all. You can't possibly predict what I'm doing. So that I make sure it's really what their body is feeling at that moment. And then by

Britt [00:50:00] placing their mental and defense mechanisms, getting them out of their mind.

Mike [00:50:04] And here's a secret I'm just going to get everybody here. If you know your sensitivities, you know your subconscious superpowers and you can use them anytime. I have a client who's not doing well or is confused, I have a few tools. I will get weirder or I will get more vulnerable. And it's just very simple. Even today you don't understand something. I will tell you a successful story with a client so that you can understand it better. I know what I can do to immediately rectify a situation that's my back pocket trick because I know what I naturally do subconsciously when I'm successful without even trying. So if I can quantify if I can conceptualize that, then I can start to live a more conscious, intentional life.

Britt [00:50:44] Hmm. Oh yeah, that's what you said at the beginning there. The things that these sensitivities are the things that you do every time that you do unconsciously, every time you're successful. So you're also doing them. You're also engaging your sensitivities to be successful with your own well.

Mike [00:50:58] Totally. Well, think about it. I mean, you are made unique. So of course, there's something you do that no one else does when you're successful. And if we can figure out what that is, it's also what you're sensitive to. Because if I are sensitive to something, I see taste, touch, smell, hear more there. That means that I'm going to have more trauma around that. I feel things deeper in that area. I'm going to see nuances you can't see. So I'm going to expertize there. That means I'm going to look for opportunities for it. I'm going to everything about I over my lifetime, my skills get honed around my area because I'm always sensitive to it. I'm always drawn to. I have an affinity for things related to that.

Jonathan [00:51:36] It's basically indistinguishable from magic, right?

Mike [00:51:38] Yeah, it is. It's your magic. That's what it is. I got that energy medicine before. It's your energy message. I don't joke about this like you. We know this. I don't have to speak words to someone and they can feel something for me, right? I can give someone a hug. I can have sex with someone. I can look someone in the eye or through a picture of me. You can feel something right. I'm transferring these all over the place. And so I know what they are. It's really, really helpful when I, my husband, is being difficult. I know when I'm more vulnerable, he's going to soften. I can start to see what I can do here. I know I saw some laughter about the husband, so let me just say this one classic story, right? Let's say that my husband is looking at his phone when I'm telling him a story after work, right? I think a lot of couples, while people can experience this fine. So and I get mad and like, Get off your phone. What are you doing? I'm trying to tell your story and make it all about the phone. Right? It's not about the phone. So if I have the wherewithal after years of doing this work, thankfully I have a little bit where I can pause and just ask myself six questions What's being triggered here? Am I feeling a lot? Not aligned? Not. A. Not free, vulnerable, that's it. I feel like I'm being too vulnerable and he's not showing up, and if you need to be that vulnerable, if I can just have that wherewithal for five seconds to asset that, I say to him, You know, Garrett, I feel really vulnerable. I'm telling you, you know, the story that's really important to me. I don't feel like, you know, I'm getting your full attention. So I just want to say that because until you can give the full intention, I'm going to feel this vulnerable. And then he gets to pause and say, You know, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that it was this for you. It's not about the phone anymore. We don't care about the phone. It was never about the phone. It's about what's really going on here. What am I sensitive to? That's triggering me? And how can I ask for it? Actually, because the desire or the strategy is for him to put his phone away, but it doesn't mean that he's necessarily going to hold space for my vulnerability. So what I really need?

Britt [00:53:31] Well, that is such a great example, and it's like our bodies in a way are constantly transmitting. They're like beacons. They're transmitting these signals. And these sensitivities are awareness and attunement to these sensitivities gives us a language that we can engage them or communicate them to be more efficient and effective. Relationally. So love ourselves and others to get our needs met, to get our desires met. It's a really it's a really beautiful framework.

Mike [00:54:07] Well, you know, I call it now, I say mapping sensitivities a lot because what we're doing is you experience in every day. So you're already experience. And I'm all I'm doing is mapping your mind. Understand what are you most sensitive to and how do you use language to get you there? Now, I don't know what these words mean to you because I don't use language the same way you do. So I want to understand, but people will say to me all the time, like, there's something really obvious about this work. Like, obviously, I knew that. Yeah, of course you did. Like, you would not have survived this long if you didn't have some sense. But what it's doing is it's allowing you to analyze and conceptualize every moment. So if you broke up with someone, why? What went wrong there? If this launch didn't work out, why? What went wrong there? You're able to analyze, understand these moments of your life. And I love that you brought about the body because one of my favorite things to do is when people discover their sensitivities to help them close their eyes and say vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable. Notice what your body does and then say the opposite. Let's say that it's protected, protected, protected. See what your body does. Now we're building a language with your body the next time that my stomach tightens. I know what my body is trying to tell me, and I have words to describe it to myself.

Jonathan [00:55:19] Hmm. That's so cool.

Britt [00:55:22] Well, you know what I love. So at least in our culture in the U.S., we have listeners all over the world. But in our culture, in the US, so many of us like want to know what we can do. You know, just give me something to do. I just want something to do. And this gives us somehow what I sense about this framework is that it's very practical and pragmatic and that there's things I can do. But it also creates the space to for that energy transfer and for the magic and the mystery of life to unfold before us without trying to encroach on it or control it in any way. So it's it's like this perfect kind of imbalance.

Mike [00:55:59] Well, I love, you know, we're talking about a oneness and non duality here. This dichotomy between do and B is still a dichotomy, right? Like at the end of the day, it's it's experiencing life. It's existing in this world that's stewing or being or all of the above. And so people ask me all the time like, Oh, so I need to ask somebody for my sensitivities. So knowing there's a million things that can happen, you can sit and hold the intention of feeling vulnerable. You can allow your stomach to relax if that's the thing for you. You can take a bath you like. There's so many options, from sitting in stillness to doing things that it's just experiencing life. You get you have agency and empowerment over your life now. So you know who you are, what you experience and your if we want to call it this unique pathway to divinity, it's how you experience life, the energy medicine you have that nobody else has, and why you are a vital piece of our puzzle here, right? Your lived experience matters. It's the only thing we know for sure, and I love saying this to people is that here's the thing, you know, theories and labels are amazing. I love theories and labels that good for classification. They're great for building community. There's so many great things. They're helpful until they're not. But if ever a theory or label counters your lived experience, you have just this proven it and taught us more about what it means to be human because you are the right thing. The theory is only extrapolating lived experience and saying, Hey, I've done this study and this is true for these people. Let me extrapolate back. That's probably true for other people. It's just a guess, and it's beautiful. We're doing that for reasons to build community, to identify, to build some analysis in. But you are right. And what I like about this work is, you know, things like A.I. brakes, all these systems, you know, their theories. The. But what does introvert mean to me, I don't know. Go read a book, and I'm still not entirely sure if it's my experience in my language. I know what that means. Maybe nobody else would get it, but I know what that means for me.

Britt [00:58:00] That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Mike, this is a whole system that you create a whole framework, and I can see how some listeners might feel a little intimidated, particularly if they're new to this work. Maybe they've just started their personal growth and development journey, and maybe they've dabbled in a little talk therapy and are just starting to maybe write a few books or something. How can folks dip their toe in it? You know, how can they like, do you have any materials out there where they can get started? Should they start following your social media? Like, what's the best way to get started?

Mike [00:58:32] Totally. So for anyone who wants to spend 30 minutes with me on video, if you go to Mike Millicom slash math, it's a map. There's a little training and a worksheet that will guide you right through just the beginning. Start thinking about this. The other advice I'm going to give to you is literally everything you experience is through your sensitivities. So anything you're doing, you can just start asking yourself questions. And let's say we talk about sexuality. Let's say you're having sex or masturbating or watching porn. You can ask yourself, why does that turn me on? That's interesting. Like, let's say you are watching porn or you are looking at an image or, you know, a thirst trap on Instagram since you brought up social media and you said, Oh, that position is very sexy. Just pause and ask yourself, why is this person looking dominant? Does it look vulnerable to the open? Just ask yourself and just a little bit in your phone. Maybe a little note. And for a week, just start asking yourself these questions. You're going to quickly notice themes coming up here that there are similar things that seem to turn you on. Let's excite you that make you happy. And then you can also go to my website if you want and do that, and they will help you begin to conceptualize what are the things you're most sensitive to

Jonathan [00:59:42] that is so cool. Amazing. And you know, this has been great.

Britt [00:59:46] Yeah. And I want to tell everybody to go check out my Mike on Instagram because he's got a really great account on Instagram. And that's actually how I first got to know him. He's so funny, so approachable and generous. And you know, you are so funny, approachable, and you have such a great way of demystifying some of the stuff and breaking it down, making it simple with visuals and videos and reels on Insta and and, you know, kind of taking the piss out of yourself and then also keeping room for the sacred. I mean, you just do a really good job. So I really encourage folks to check out Mike's website and his Instagram profile. Of course, we're going to put everything in the show notes, so you don't have to scribble down any addresses, but I just want to give a special shout out to make you do such a great job with that.

Jonathan [01:00:33] Thank you. I think what's really clear for me is that you embody what you teach and that is special. There's so many people out there not doing that. So I applaud you for.

Mike [01:00:45] Thank you. You know, I think my hope for the whole world is that we can all fully embody every part of myself, including the shame of who we are, because that's how we share that magic with the world. There's so much that doesn't get to be shared because we are afraid or we don't know how or and I'm just saying every party is right. Just bring it all together and people can feel it right. They can feel that. And you want to attract in a partner that you love. You want better sex. Like, I'll close with this sensitivity is how we engage with like the only things which which aren't sensitive are those which aren't allies, right? If something's alive, it's sensitive. And the more sensitive it is, the more alive it is. You know, it's like, you know, we take certain drugs. Let's say that make you sensitive. You feel things deeper. Or if you're in a let's say your stomach is sensitive and someone touches it, you feel it's so intensely, it's so much light. And so what we're talking about here is deepening into our sensitivities, deepening into our experience with life, generously sharing that with others and receiving more from light. And that's how we live before while live life.

Britt [01:01:49] What a beautiful message, Mike, it has been such a pleasure to have you on the show today. I mean, I could just talk to you all day. I feel so grateful that we got the chance to learn more about you and your system and expose that to our listeners. I think it would help so many people if they go and check you out further and read some of your amazing work and engage with you on Instagram. It's just been a wonderful time. Thank you so much.

Mike [01:02:16] Now, thanks so much for having me.

Britt [01:02:18] Absolutely, absolutely. Mike Imli, everybody go check him out again. All of his contact information will be in the show notes, so you can learn more at your convenience. Highly recommend it. Like I said, I'm one of his absolute biggest fans. It's just been such a thrill to just spend time with them on the show today, and that is another episode of Not Going Quietly. You made it. You survived. You made it to the end of another hour with me and Jonathan C. It wasn't as painful as. People tell you wasn't as bad as you maybe feared you did that you should be very proud of yourself, so be really nice to yourself for the rest of the day. Have an extra big piece of cake or a cookie to reward yourself for a job well done because because you certainly aren't putting up with us, so we really appreciate it. This has been not going quietly. The podcast for heartbroken healers and optimists all over the world where we talk about all the stuff that nobody wants to but is secretly dying to hear. Thank you so much and have a great week, everyone. You've been listening to not going quietly with co-host Jonathan Beale and Brit East,

Jonathan [01:03:26] thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Britt [01:03:34] Check out our show notes for links, additional information and episodes located on your favorite podcast platforms.