Loving Your Gay Dad with Laura Hall

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beaten biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us just in courageous conversation, because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truths in the name of radical togetherness. I'm your host, Britt East, and my co-host Jonathan Beale is on sabbatical, so unfortunately, you won't have his wonderful presence today. However, I've got an amazing guest for you, and I cannot wait for you to meet her. So let's bring her in. Her name is Laura Hall, and she was born on the San Francisco Peninsula to a closeted gay father and a straight mother during the post-World War two baby boom. She came of age during the rebellious sixties, just as the summer of love to kick off in San Francisco. Laura, I'm so jealous. Already over the cure. If you had a child at the age of 24. She asked her father if he'd ever been unfaithful to her mother. Dun dun dun. Little did she know how her world would turn with this response. She received her B.A. and M.A. in Landscape architecture from UC Berkeley and practiced community design for two decades. She currently works as a community involvement coordinator for the Environmental Protection Agency. Laura lives with her husband in San Francisco. Laura, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you today?

Laura [00:01:48] Hi, Britt. Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to chatting with you.

Britt [00:01:53] Yeah, me too. You have such a unique story and you've given us a real gift with your book. Your book is called "Affliction: Growing Up with a Closeted Gay Dad," and I have to admit, I was a little apprehensive about reading it. You know, it's so easy for writers outside of the queer community to inadvertently cause harm, even when writing about us with the best of intentions, because you lack the lived experience of a gay man. It would be easy for you to unintentionally bolster homophobic tropes and stereotypes in the telling of your father's story. But what I love so much about your book is your loving, tender humility. You never once try and get ahead of your father or anyone else. You remain grounded in the telling of your story, even as it intersects the story of your father and your mother and others. You never attempt to fix anything or psychoanalyze anyone. You celebrate everyone with the messy awe and wonder that comes naturally when fully considering the scope of a human life. And I think it's a triumph. But it's one thing to write a manuscript in a very different thing to publish a book. So, Laura, my question to you is, how did this book come about and why in the world did you decide to share it with the world?

Laura [00:03:13] I no, I had no intention of this. I hadn't never thought about it until about ten years ago. And it was just a random occurrence. I was working in downtown San Francisco and I was walked by a bookstore bookstore on my way to work. And I was just feeling this urge to write about something. I love writing, and I won writing contests in grammar school. And I just I had gotten away from that and I thought, I'm just going to look for a writing book and just start reading it. And I bought it. And then on my way home from work, taking the train home, I was reading it and it was a crowded train and I there was an elderly man behind me. It's interesting, he was almost my dad's age and he was looking over my shoulder, which is something people don't do in the trains. You know, there's a certain amount of respect people have when it's crowded. But he said he said, Oh, do you know that author teaches writing workshops in our house in San Francisco?

Britt [00:04:18] Oh, my.

Laura [00:04:18] Gosh. She was a long time columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle that my father loved. He would always send me copies of her articles. And so when I got I got home, I signed up for her course. And the very first day, the very first 10 minutes, she gave us a writing prompt. And it was called. My father's clothes. And I thought, well, I could write about that. My dad had gorgeous clothes and his closet was so perfectly lined up by color, by style, and just beautiful materials that he bought and tailored clothes he bought in San Francisco where he worked. And within about. Less than a minute. Mine turned into my father's closet. And so I was describing this closet. But then it hit me. My father's closet. Wow. And that's where the story was born. I was born in 5 minutes, and I never had any intention, but I certainly loved my father. I loved my family. And it just poured out of me. It really did.

Britt [00:05:30] But what an amazing story. I mean, all this synchronicity and that story, it's just astonishing. It's like a higher power was just pulling all the threads for you and your divine guidance, like leading you each step of the way. You know, I read your book really fast, and then I kind of reread it slowly, thinking through the various sections and and kind of examining my own feelings as I read it. And, and then thinking through as a writer how you how you pull the various threads. And, you know, I thought that in your book, part of what you describe, of course, is your father's coming out story. And I'm purposely not going to give away any spoilers and just talk generally. But in many ways, this book is your coming out story as well. I mean, the single thing that I think you did that was so beautiful is that it's your story. You know, like I said earlier, you're not trying to speak on behalf of others. You're describing your experience. And by virtue of doing that, of course, you reveal details about your life and your family, but there as you experience them. So it's your coming out story as well, not only as the daughter of a gay dad, but in many other aspects of your life as well. And I got to thinking, well, perhaps you're still coming out in various ways in your life. Like maybe we never stop coming out, even if we're straight. Coming out is not exclusively a gay or queer experience. And so maybe you're still coming out in various ways of your life as you meet new people or reveal aspects of your life you've never previously disclosed or you've always kept private all these years later. I guess my question is how would you describe your coming out experience and having shared such personal details about your life with the world?

Laura [00:07:20] Well, there's a certain. People would describe me as this. I have this naivete. I really have no fear of just opening up and speaking the truth or my truth or my experiences. It's it's just not hard at all. I know it is. I think, you know, I did have a very loving kind of parents and we were always encouraged to be open and share everything. They were interested in what we had to say. And I think I was always sort of the innocent child of the four of us. Like I just said, I've rarely had it. I don't have any problem telling my truths or my experiences or my my faults. It wasn't hard at all. I know that might sound a little different than most people, but no, it wasn't hard at all. And I think it's because there was so much love in our family and the people were so kind, you know, and that I would never have any reason to write anything unkind anyway, you know?

Britt [00:08:35] Yeah. Yeah. Now, I don't want people to think that your book is some sanitized Leave It to Beaver Disney kind of life story, even though you have this natural gift of the sense of naivety and childlike wonder and openness about you. Like you, like you attributed to the loving support of your family. You tell the full story and you tell a rich story and all the ups and lows of a family life. And I was thinking like, you know, I was just a couple of months ago in the middle of the South American desert in South America, one of the least populous populated places on the planet. And somebody stopped me and knew me from my book. And I was like, okay, you have these weird, surreal moments like, what did I say? What did I write? Oh, my God, should I be embarrassed? Like, how much do they reveal? I mean, for some reason, my brain doesn't necessarily first go to like, the space of, like, honor and wonder and like, Oh, that's so cool. I go to like, Oh, shit, what did I do? You know, how embarrassed should I be in this moment? And, and so but it doesn't seem like you have that, do you? It seems like you're saying you're fine with everybody. You're kind of an open book and you're in. You're thrilled to tell your story. You didn't feel any sense of of overexposure.

Laura [00:09:59] Well, I have to say one thing is that some of when my coworkers learned I had written a book. I. I just. I pass the message that I would bring one to them for them to read if they would like. And then afterwards I said, Well, now my coworkers will know everything now. Yeah. And so I did have that one moment. But then I thought. There's nothing to feel ashamed of, you know? But, you know, I do reveal a lot of details, as you know.

Britt [00:10:33] Yeah, I love it. That's such a healthy, grounded response. And, you know, I know from straight people in my life, it's one thing to love and accept your queer family member. It's another thing to come out about it and tell the people in your faith community, your place of employment, whatever, that you have a queer child or brother or father or whatever like that. Was there any apprehension? Is that part of what you were alluding to with your coworkers where you weren't nervous about them finding out your dad was gay?

Laura [00:11:05] No, not at all. I was nervous about them learning how many times I'd been married because I started very young. Yeah. Yeah. No. And, you know, I again, I grew up a child of the sixties. The Bay Area. Yeah. Always like fighting for social causes, marching, you know, antiwar, civil, right through Golden Gate Park. And, you know, as time went on, I just felt more. Like I wanted to share my dad's story. I wanted to and I get a little teary, probably, but I wanted to do it for him. And. Yeah. And actually. You know, there are a lot of older gay men in the Castro. We live just one neighborhood away from the Castro district in San Francisco, and a lot of them are very lonely and they lead really difficult lives. Like my dad. Many were closeted or their maybe their children abandoned them or, you know, they have no children, they have no family. And they sit on the benches. And my husband, I drive through there least two or three times a week. And I always look at those men on the benches and I thought. If I can give them some love, you know, like. I'm the child. I'm. I could be one of their children. Child. Children. And I had great love for my father. And. And I could feel it for them to know. Yeah. I just had a lot of motivation from that perspective, you know? But never once was I nervous about saying my dad was gay.

Britt [00:12:52] Yeah, it's really beautiful. Really touching and sitting here pinching myself, so don't cry as well. So there might be a lot of tears on this episode. That's totally okay. You know, your book is such a rare and precious gift because at least as seen through the lens of the queer community, it can actually help us understand our own journeys. And I encourage queer people to read this book as well. It's really for everybody. You tell a full story. Sure. The the the tip of the spear is growing up with a closeted gay dad, but it's really a story of a family. And and you in a coming of age story for yourself. And but as queer people in part of your story, I think a lot of us will see ourselves reflected in the eyes of those who love us because we spend so much time as a matter of necessity and in introspection. And that's why I think a lot of gay men in particular can can be deemed as selfish, self-interested, self-involved. Because as a trauma response, we're getting to know ourselves for the first time at whatever age we can come out. And coming out is a continual journey. But and so a lot of us don't necessarily have time to think through the consequences of what it costs straight people to love a gay person. And I think your book can help stoke curiosity and empathy from the queer community and in our families journeys, our friends journeys. And I wonder, Laura, how your love changed and your relationship changed with your father after he came out about his sexual orientation to you?

Laura [00:14:27] Good question. I was always. Connected from my father, from my earliest memory. I think we're wired similarly or similarly or something. But I always had an eye and looking out for him, I couldn't wait till I got home from work. I we spoke the same language. He taught me how to make crafts in the sixties like macrame and earrings. He had me recite poetry practicing for school. We had a really great relationship. And, you know, he's the only father I ever had. The other fathers on our block where we live, they were all very different. I mean, I wasn't feeling judgmental, but, you know, they'd go fishing or hunting or sports on the weekends, roughhouse with their kids. And my dad was nothing like that. And. I. And. I'm trying to think I was just so shocked when he came out to me, and maybe I shouldn't have been, but I had no, you know, no parameters to. I mean, a lot of it is like generalization about gay men. You know, he he loved fine art. He'd take us to museums and musicals and garden shows, and he did all the landscaping. He bought all our clothes, which were, by the way, they were gorgeous and which is, you know. It sounds stereotypical. But. No, I just. What was your question?

Britt [00:16:15] No, that's okay. I want to. I actually want to pause before we get back to my original question, because you brought a lot of good stuff. Stereotypes exist for reasons, and there's a lot of us who have those attributes that your father described, maybe a natural bent towards the arts and towards a certain personal refinement and elegance and creativity. A lot of guys don't. There's no single way to be gay or queer, bi or pan or whatever your orientation is, and you're describing your father as he was and has as you experienced him. And that's absolutely valid. But there might be listeners who are thinking, Well, I'm not like that, or my friends are like, That's totally cool as well. There's no one way to be gay. My question really to you was, I mean, look, it's as a reader of your book, you do such a good job of personal reflection, introspection, and then making that explicit on the page for the audience that it was easy to kind of be like, what do you mean, you didn't know? But when it's your life, I mean, I well know I didn't know I was gay until I knew. And so it's like when it's your life and all the messages, the pressures of straight supremacy are pressing down on you and and and forcing queer people to live on the margins of society, especially back then. To live undiscovered lives. To. To remain in the closet. To avoid telling anybody their personal truths, much less living them. It's no surprise you didn't know. And so aside from the shock and awe of that moment. As we reveal ourselves, especially these deep core truths to one another, I can't help but think our relationships are inevitably changed. And that knowledge alone, seeing him in a new light for years and years. How did that change your love for him, your relationship with him? Knowing that new information?

Laura [00:18:03] I just I've always been a curious child and I just wanted to know more. At first I was just like I asked him if he'd ever been unfaithful to my mother. I did not expect that response that he gave me. And I was. Oh, really? You know, that's. That's as deep as I got. And then I just. I just asked him questions from the next. Let's see. That was in 1975. So. And he died in 2008. So for the rest of that time, I was asking him questions and I was the one child that he told the stories to. And I do feel a certain responsibility for that to share them. I just I always love my father. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was confused at times. Sometimes it was hard because, you know, secrets are so. Problematic in families and my broken. I didn't know if my mother knew that I knew. And then we didn't. He didn't. She didn't want my brother to know. And it was just very complicated. That was tangled web. You know, I just I actually pushed really hard for a family therapy session in our living room. Like, could we just all get together with someone who could help us out here, but that not everyone would agree to that. So we never did. I always had hoped we would.

Britt [00:19:35] Yeah, it's impossible to know. But do you think you would have ever come out to you had you not asked that really searing question about his faithfulness to your mother?

Laura [00:19:45] I don't know, because he was very proper, not conservative, but he was was very careful with his children about what he told them. You know, he didn't want to give us too much. He was a very mindful person. You asked him a question. He would always take a breath and then even answer in very complete answers, never pushy, never pushed anything on us at all. So I don't know. I don't know the answer to that if he would. But we just you know, as he got older and then my husband and I took care of him, we just got even closer and had some really incredible moments set his end up life. You know, I do think of one thing. I'm going off topic maybe, but you asked me, like, what did I you know, how things have maybe changed since I found out he was gay? And what have I learned about myself? I don't think you worded it that way, but I was working at my job, and I made a mistake on something, you know, just an administrative mistake. And I was really beating myself up. And I went and I asked myself, like, I've always been that way. I want straight A's. I want all this. Okay, so where does that come from? My parents were kind. They never criticized us. But I remember that little essay was written called The Best Little Boy in the World to Read. And, you know, I read that and I. I cried through the whole essay because I was my dad. Everything he did was like he couldn't make a move that might reveal who he might be. Right. Like, he just had to be so contained all his life to make sure he didn't make one tiny mistake so that someone might find out. Right. And so anyway, those are the kinds of things that keep unfolding for me as time goes by.

Britt [00:21:48] Yeah, it's amazing the ripple effects of whether it's queer culture or in this case, what I would actually kind of call like the residue of the closet of wearing a mask. And and sometimes that can work in your favor, like maybe you're really successful in your career because you have those tendencies that you picked up from your father was closet. Or maybe it causes you pain like in the situation you describe. But it's it's amazing all the ripple effects. And one of the things I love about your book so much is the the wonder and sense of awe you express about the unasked questions and the undisclosed information that we take to our grades and all the things that none of us will ever know. The depths of our partners hearts, our siblings hearts or our spouses, our parents hearts that just go either unplugged or undisclosed. And the beauty and the tragic beauty of that and the the almost create occur of like the urgency of finding moments of to have to nurture those moments of relatedness and to ask questions and to find points of connection. You you make it so obvious how dire that is.

Laura [00:23:13] Yeah, I know. That's one thing I constantly tell my daughter is, Honey, ask me all the questions now and, you know, ask whatever you want and there's nothing to hide. I share everything. And she goes, Mom, I already know all the answers. You owe me everything I is it. You know, when I'm gone, you'll remember things you wish you would never know. Because. No, I know everything, Mom. I'm good.

Britt [00:23:43] How does she feel about your book and all this information being out there in the world?

Laura [00:23:47] Oh, she's so proud that she loved her grandfather so much. And he used to take care of her during the summers. She was on a. I have so many thoughts that go through my mind. But she was on that six weeks on three weeks off school. It was like experimental when she was little and I was working. So I would take her down to Graham and Grandpa's house and she spent a lot of time with my father and. And it's interesting because she told her daughters when they were, oh, like maybe in their first year of high school that their grandfather, great grandfather was gay and it was like nothing to them. And. One time I was back visiting them when they were living back east, and my granddaughter really wanted me to watch Glee, that TV show.

Britt [00:24:50] Yeah.

Laura [00:24:51] She is so awesome and she wanted me to watch it with her, which I did. And at the end of it she goes, Grandma, that's what she taught Grandma. I know why, Papa. Who? She called her grandfather. I know why Papa stayed in the closet. And I said, You do? And she goes. Yeah, He wanted to live.

Britt [00:25:17] Oh, gosh.

Laura [00:25:19] I know. Sorry.

Britt [00:25:22] We got married.

Laura [00:25:25] But she was like. 1213. You know, I know you got younger people. You know. Mostly are pretty cool.

Britt [00:25:38] Yeah. You know, I was thinking about other sides of your story that maybe take a backseat at first glance to the to the title of the book. And that many people lived in mixed marriages in all sorts of ways, whether it's a mixture of races or ethnicities, gender orientations, sexual orientations, backgrounds, all sorts of things. And I mean, you could even say that just about all marriages involve some sort of blending and mixing of identities. Yeah. When a marriage involves a mix of sexual orientations, we might presume a certain level of incompatibility or desire discrepancy, but that's not necessarily true. Like for maybe we think maybe one partner in a mixed orientation marriage is bisexual or pansexual. They could be equally attracted to people of opposite sexes or other all sorts of sexes, etc.. And so it's really easy to stereotype and and make assumptions or or maybe even one partner identifies as straight but regularly experiences same sex desires. I'm telling you, that happens a lot. And so. Even when one partner in a mixed orientation marriage might identify as gay. Desire and love are messy business. They involve the depths and the breadth of the human heart. And like I was saying a few minutes ago, people rarely reveal all of themselves to anyone, especially their children. So we're often left to guess and wonder as outsiders. And Laura, my question to you is, what surprises about your father's journey and your journey surfaced over the years together and even since his death?

Laura [00:27:23] Well, one thing I. I learned after his death and my mother had died two years before him. Was that? I assume. That my father was unhappy being in the marriage and that. You know, he was. Repressed in some way because he felt he had to stay. But towards the end of his life, what he would talk about is how much. Like he when he was in assisted living. Facility in the last year of his life, and it was right near our house. And he said that because. I think your mother would just be really proud of how I decorated this. And the thing about my mother is she loved him so completely from the moment she set eyes on him when she was 17 years old. She never no matter that she found out he was gay, nothing ever changed for her. And. I. I didn't realize the depth of their love for each other until after they were both gone, because I was always thinking, Oh, poor mom, poor dad. They didn't see themselves that way. And that surprises me. And it honors me, too, as their child, you know? Yeah.

Britt [00:29:06] Your book is going to help so many people. I can't wait for more people to continue to read it, because, like you're saying, it's so easy to jump to. Those conclusions are perfectly logical given our cultural frames that that we do. We're all so busy and tired, we don't necessarily have time to think through all the nuanced nuances of everybody's journeys and and get curious and empathetic. And so it's really easy to just sweep past that and just make assumptions that, oh, people are miserable and, you know, maybe some people are. But but from what I know of love and especially long term relationships, is that there's lots of ups and downs. And love is not just a is it isn't just a singular thing, even romantic love, much less when you talk about the pure joy of companionship. And so I think that's one of the things people will come away from. Your book is the richness of lives well lived, even with tight constraints, even with brutal societal forces that warped the contours of their lives, there were still so much love and joy and happiness. It's a rich tapestry, a rich portrait of a family that you paint. And I think that's going to open a lot of people's eyes. Have you have you heard any feedback from maybe other straight people in your life that were had similar surprises about what it's like to to grow up with a closeted dad?

Laura [00:30:36] Yeah, I have a whole group of women of all generations. For years we actually met in my living room because we felt we were all alone, you know, like, and we all spoke the same language, but their fathers were mostly they had. They'd move out and then they would have a roommate or they would, you know, this language that I never heard the roommate and. I. I don't know anyone else with my story. Oh, I can say that. Yeah, It's a really tender story. I think that. You know the last words my parents said to each other. When it was just right before my mother died, like 8 hours. And my father. Oh, it's in the book. But he said. Because I was wondering what would the end their end be like? You know, I was so sad and like, oh, and he came lumbering down the hall. At that point, he was kind of hunched over and is like 89 by then and with his cane. And he walked into her bedroom and sat down and some. He said, I'm so glad you said yes. And that was. I know, I know. I just try and. This is one that's what really cemented it for me. Like. And then her reaction was. I do it all. I do it again. Mm hmm. And. And he was hard of hearing. Or maybe he couldn't believe what he heard, but she had. He had her repeat it. And I thought, you know, the old Henry story, like, you know, the love is so strong that you give up something. It kind of I don't know. For some reason I thought of that one. I know. But like the love they had for each other, they basically almost. Lied. It's not a lie. But like my mother had told me, if she had known early on before they got married that she wouldn't have married him. But she always loved him. And. And he was telling. And so she was letting him know that. And I know that for him, the most important thing is that. But the Americans and my mother loved him so much and he had had such a brutal childhood and arrests and firings during the Lavender scare or the. That time for federal workers. And throughout it all. I never heard my mother criticize my father. Never. Never. So there was that love. And it was really hard for me to have that make sense until I saw that I saw this last scene. And they just they so appreciated each other. My mother grew up without a dad, and my dad wasn't a lot older than her, so he kind of replaced that. He was very fatherly to her. She was very childlike, like me and. Yeah. Anyway. I know, I know. I cry all the time. But still.

Britt [00:34:12] Tears are welcome here and. You know, we are all such complex mixtures of so much, and it's hard to pin this down. And a lot of these questions often come down to the moment in which they are asked as to as opposed to any foundational truth that persists throughout our lives. So it's like, you know, on any given day an answer might be yes or no. What I have married, what I've done this, what I've stayed with time or or whatever. But I guarantee you, guarantee you there are hundreds, thousands, millions of guys out there who identify as straight wrestling with same sex desires and live in abject terror of anybody else knowing.

Laura [00:34:54] Yeah.

Britt [00:34:54] And and, you know, maybe given the freedom to truly express themselves, they would identify as gay or bi or pan or whatever, you know, who knows? But because of the brutality of our primitive culture, they feel they cannot afford it. And so they stay trapped. And that's one of the beautiful things of the book, is because you paint a picture of so much joy, you create space and hope for people from all sorts of with all sorts of different lived experience, you know? And I was thinking for the queer community, for those of us who are openly part of that community, where so like I said earlier, we're so often so self-involved in our personal journeys of liberation, equity, joy that we sometimes forget those people we leave in our wake. And that's not our fault. The blame always go back, goes back to the people and structures of straight supremacy that destroy any differences that don't fit its agenda. And you know, in your book, you paint such a vivid picture of the cost associated with keeping secrets, but also the cost associated with disclosing secrets. Like you said earlier, this tangled web that all of a sudden you guys had because now it was there's triangulation. Who knows what, when and how. And, you know, and even when we freely express our authentic selves. And in particular, I was struck by the honest portrait you painted of your dad's final years living his life as an out gay man, and the surprising costs on your personal life. That really struck me. I had never thought of it from that perspective. And I guess my question to you, Laura, and please feel free to speak openly is what would you like queer people to understand about the experience of loving us, particularly in our brutal society of straight supremacy? What does it cost you? What is it you know, what do you wish we would know about your journey?

Laura [00:36:56] It's interesting because I know so many gay people now, and I work with a lot of gay people and trans and bi and. You know, I just. I tend to love almost everyone or I find something to love. And almost everyone. Not everyone. I do. I. From the time I was a little girl. Like so little, maybe three, but probably more like four. If I ever saw anyone hurt someone, it would hurt me terribly. Like, how did I know that when I was four, you know? And so I've just always looked for the wounded, I think, or the, you know, the mistreated and. One thing. My grandmother, I had beautiful grandparents too, and my grandmother. We would celebrate Christmas at her house Christmas Eve every year on her, at her house on the San Francisco Peninsula, and lots of cousins. Then, you know, was the fifties, the baby boom. Everyone had four, six kids or whatever. And there were these little boy cousins of mine who were just so energetic and just they'd always end up probably too much sugar or whatever, and they'd start fighting or throwing things. And my grandmother was very proper, very kind, but very proper, and everything in her house was very tidy. And I was sitting next to her and I was like looking up at her, you know, I maybe was seven, eight looking up at her like, what's she going to do with these, these rowdy little boy cousins who were throwing things all over her house and. And I think I asked or something or I said I commented on it and she goes. That's okay, Laurie. They're just having a hard time. Oh, but they're just having a hard day. Something like that. And I thought, Oh, I got that gift when I was seven. Wow. The refrain things, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah.

Britt [00:39:14] That's a beautiful gift of modeling empathy to especially to a young person. When your brain is a sponge and you just absorb it straight away and.

Laura [00:39:23] It comes right.

Britt [00:39:23] In. Yeah, it could have been the opposite. And so many families, it's, you know, the response would have been one of blame or shame or embarrassment or anger. And then you internalize that. So it's such a beautiful gift. You know, one of the things I found interesting about your book is that you dedicate it to your parents, not just your dad. And, you know, one of my absolute favorite aspects of it is that you refuse to let your mom's story get lost in the shuffle. And that would have been so easy, given the nature of the subject matter. But she's got a voice, too, as do your siblings, in part because this book is about so much more than your father's sexual orientation. Like I keep saying, it's about a family's love and all the incredible ups and downs you experience as a result. And so, Laura, my question is, what do you wish you could have told your mom about this book? And what was it like for you to grow up in a mixed orientation marriage?

Laura [00:40:20] I just wish I was able to have more conversations with her about it. She didn't want to talk about it. She kept trying. You know, she's very, very sweet person. And she never wanted to say a critical word about my dad. I mean, I don't know if I ever heard a critical word. Ever. And I know my family's okay. But very few times I would kind of push. And she said, Oh, we'll have that talk. We'll have that talk one day. And towards the end of her life, she says, I'm gonna to take you out for lunch and your sister, and I want to just let that talk to you about some things. And it turned out we never had that talk. And I think she wanted to take it to her grave that she didn't want to burden us her thinking that she was unhappy or that things were hard from her. She would never say anything unkind about my father, ever. And she didn't she didn't want to burden. She never wanted to burden her children. So I don't know what that story would have been. Yeah.

Britt [00:41:34] I cannot help but wonder not to get in her head. I can't help but wonder if she was afraid of even inadvertently shaping your opinion of your father. And maybe by sharing.

Laura [00:41:47] Oh, yes, actually, she alluded to that over the years because she always said she didn't have a father. Yeah. And she wanted us to have a father. And she said, you kids, your your your father was so good to you kids. And it was like and she was like a child to maybe the fifth child, you know, that father figure. She never wanted to tarnish him in our eyes. She would never do that.

Britt [00:42:15] And but in her eyes, that was the most precious gift she could give you.

Laura [00:42:19] I'm glad you brought this up, Brett, because, you know, I. I yearned for that talk with her. But who knows what it might have been. You know, And mostly I feel protective of her now. Like, good for her. She she took care of things, how she wanted them done. And she lived a happy life. I mean, she was sang and choir. She was a photographer. She traveled. She. I mean, she was determined to be happy, very.

Britt [00:42:54] Well engaged in society. She was in the stream of life. She wasn't. You know, there's the caricatures and tropes of women of that era just kind of being cloistered in their own homes. And she wasn't like that at all.

Laura [00:43:05] No. So funny. She was singing in the church choir in San Carlos on the peninsula when my father was. Stay in the war. He had just been enlisted in the war right at the beginning of World War Two. And. They met at a USO dance. My mother had red hair and he was he noticed that. And she said she loved his big blue eyes and his white teeth. They cracked me up. Anyway, she went. She was 17. High school senior. And she was already in the church choir. And I think that's really why she liked church. She liked church a lot because she got to sing. And when they finally made the move up to where my husband and I were living and she had to leave the church, she was very sad about that. But what I didn't realize is she was the longest serving choir, remember, in the history of that peninsula. She had sung for 50 years and oh, yeah, she she got so much joy out of that. Yeah, she made her own joy. She did?

Britt [00:44:15] Yeah. This. I'm so glad we're having this talk, because I was sitting here thinking like, it's such a good companion to your book. Because your book is searing. I mean, your book is lays bare what you experienced in life, and a lot of it isn't, you know, wasn't always joyful. And and now you speak with such tenderness about your family. And it's it's a great tribute and compliment. So I'm so glad we're getting to have this talk. And you know what I told my husband about your book without giving anything away to him. And I certainly won't give it away now. I'll let you lead on what you disclosed, but your book and we try not to cry. Your book ends in the most beautiful way possible. And it. It really caught me off guard. In the most healing and cathartic way. You know, I read that section, the ending of your book as a benediction and a prayer to your father, your mother, yourself, and all the lives torn apart over the centuries by straight supremacy, by people forced to live lives other than they wanted to forced to be in the closet. And you give in the book, you give your father the most precious possible present that I could think of. Like I said, without any spoilers for future readers, or you can disclose whatever you want to. How did it feel to you to be able to offer him this impossible, lovely, tender present?

Laura [00:45:51] My dad was a storyteller and he often talked about humanity. He had a story that he wanted to write. He had a story in him he wanted to write. And after he retired, he. Started. He took a writing class at a junior college down here on the peninsula, and he was with all these young people and he was very insecure about his writing, although he was an excellent writer. And so they were asked to write a story, and he did. And he was nervous about what kind of grade he was going to get. And I guess we never lose that, right? Yeah.

Britt [00:46:31] I was just thinking that.

Laura [00:46:34] And he went up and accepted his paper from his teacher and it was had an A on it and he, he said I was, he was I was so surprised and I told my teacher I said. I. I thought I had a story to write or. No. Something about that. But. How he wanted to have it. He didn't know if he had a story in him to tell. And he said. You have a story, Ralph? Yeah. And he was. I mean, he repeated that to me so many times. I forget that wasn't the exact same wording. The teachers.

Britt [00:47:17] As close. As close.

Laura [00:47:19] Yeah, it was. Yes, you do. You do have something to tell. Yeah. And but he never followed up on that. And my brother and I went through his computer. Like, did he write it? Is it buried deep in the hard drive? And we never found it. And so it's to me, it's like. My dad would be so happy to see this story about him and our family. I mean, he would just be over the moon. I know that.

Britt [00:47:49] Yeah. And, yeah, it's like completing a life's dream for him and on his behalf. And. And then with that ending. Wow. It was just incredibly beautiful. You know, like I said earlier, there are so many people out there suffering today. We just know that there are, for whatever reason, either they're in the closet, their loved ones are in the closet around any number of topics or issues. I was wondering what hope you can give families in and of mixed orientation marriages. Where can they turn for support? Do you have any? And we can put links, of course, in the show notes and stuff for everybody. And we'll definitely put links to Laura's website and where you can buy your book and everything. But you know what? What would you advise to people who are suffering today? Like where can they turn for hope?

Laura [00:48:38] You know, when you live long enough. You realize that things go in cycles and we feel like, you know, this is a pretty bad one we're in. Yeah, it's been bad before, but this is a really cruel one. Yeah. And I, I keep. Telling people that there were times when people lost hope in the past that it would ever get better, that we're just descending into this hellish nightmare and. But mostly it's always gotten better. I surrounded myself with these young gals, mostly young, much younger. But we did have like four generations in my living room. There's talking. I didn't know anyone who had a. Gay father or a closeted certainly not a closeted gay dad that they knew about. How did you find them? Well, there's this Facebook group that's called the Gay Dad Project. And it's just a weird name, But there's anyway, I somehow connected up with the woman who they're lovely people. I still stand with them. And we started getting together and then I went to a book reading at the Jail B t Museum Historical Society in the Castro and saw Alicia Abbott. Do you know her? She wrote Fairyland and about her dad. She grew up in the Haight-Ashbury and he died of AIDS. And Sofia Coppola just put a plug in for that. She she made a movie out of it, and it just premiered at Telluride and Sundance. Yeah. And it's going to be at Provincetown, I think, this month. And so I went to a book reading from her. Of her she wrote about her dad, and it's called Fairyland, and so is the movie. And. She had written something in my book, which I still have. That was ten years ago about, you know, something like. Something about our dads. You know, our dads. And she lost her dad very young. And then I. So I met her. And then I met other young people there. All women that just happened to be women that I met. And we would compare notes. They also there's a group called the Collectors. And they these are all the children. A father who died of AIDS and. They have a group and they we did a memorial in Golden Gate Park. Sorry. So there's a memorial in Golden Gate Park. There's a memorial AIDS Memorial Park. And then there's a monument. And there are others names or written in them. And. And it's interesting because I'm much older than all of them. Because their dad died. They're in the age of my daughter. Yeah. And. And so I'm the only I'm kind of the outlier in that group. But I feel like my I always feel like I feel like my job is just to comfort, you know, these children. Right. Because my dad comforted gay men who were dying of AIDS in the summer, in the early eighties. And he said, you know, there was nothing he could do but just hold their hands. They had no family to come to see them. And I thought, you know, maybe one of them was the father of one of these friends of mine. But I think just for me, it was just sharing stories. And this because I was like, I was clueless. Like, my dad came out to me, like, how does this work? Yeah. Yeah. And who knows what and all this. And we all speak of similar language. So I would just those, those monthly meetings, they went on for a year and that got me through my book. Hmm. And some of them have written books.

Britt [00:52:53] That's really beautiful. I was struck, as you mentioned, the age gap in that support group. And I suspect, you know, many guys out there took their secrets with them to the graves and never disclosed it. And who knows how they lived and survived. And I was struck by how much your dad loved you. To share this with you.

Laura [00:53:14] He did.

Britt [00:53:15] And the courage it must have taken in that moment, even where you lived in the, you know, the holy grail of the gay universe from some aspects. But when you're closeted, it might as well be on the moon. And so that act of courage and love in that moment to start this journey is really breathtaking.

Laura [00:53:33] I know. I'm really I'm really I'm surprised I ask the question and then I'm surprised that everybody got the funniest look on his face when I asked, you know, if he had never been unfaithful to my mom, because, of course I thought so. Because he was very handsome. He was a good dancer. He was a good cook. Oh, care of the kids. All my mother's girlfriends were jealous of him saying, Oh, he's not like all the other husbands and. Yeah. And when I asked them, he just hinted that he would just take a mindful pause. And he just looked at me. And then he said, Honey, I'm okay. I'm going to just like, Oh, yeah.

Britt [00:54:19] Yeah.

Laura [00:54:20] But I you know, I'm so glad that he had me to bear witness all those years. He and I were always close before he disclosed that. And we remain close till the day he's dying.

Britt [00:54:32] That's so beautiful. And it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you and and to speak with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the show and for most of all, for writing this book, which is going to help so many people out there. I just can't wait for everyone.

Laura [00:54:47] To read it. Thank you, Britt.

Britt [00:54:48] Well, listeners, you have made it through another episode of Not Going Quietly. We're so happy you did and came on this journey with us. We could not do it without you. This is a podcast for outraged optimism, heartbroken healers all over the world. And we're here with you and for you. Thank you so much. Until next time. Bye bye. You've been listening to. Not Going Quietly with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Jonathan [00:55:15] Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense, clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Britt [00:55:23] Check out our show notes for links, additional information and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.