Queer Leadership with Dr. Steven Yacovelli

Britt East [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with your host Britt East. No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy. So get ready to join us for some courageous conversation, because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt East [00:00:29] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Not Going Quietly. The podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truths in the name of radical togetherness. I'm your host, Britt East, and I have such a fantastic featured guest today. I can't wait to get into it, so let's dive right in. Since 2002, Steve actively has focused his energies on building the doghouse. Working with awesome clients like the Walt Disney Company, IBM, Bayer, Covestro, Merck, George Washington University, the Public Library Association, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, PBS, the Ohio State University, Accenture and BellSouth. AT&T, among many others. Steve holds a B.S. in public relations from Millersville, University of Pennsylvania and M.A. in Educational Policy and Leadership Development from the Ohio State University and an eddy in instructional technology and Distance Education from Nova Southeastern University. An award winning Amazon best selling and in some circles banned. Author Steve has written books and articles focusing on consciously inclusive leadership, creating a sense of belonging for all team members, for business success, and helping people be more resilient in times of change in the workplace and beyond. With over 30 years experience in workplace leadership, learning, strategy and change management, Steve is a rare breed of professional that understands the power of using academic theory and applying it to the workplace setting to achieve business results. my gosh, I cannot wait to dive into this today, Steve. How the hell are you?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:02:07] Good. How are you? So many dog puns. I can't stand it.

Britt East [00:02:12] I know. It's all I could do to keep a straight face. I was really good. So excellent. So excellent. So tell us what the dog house is.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:02:20] So Top Dog Learning Group is actually the business. A colleague of mine and I started in 2002 as a side hustle while we were at Disney. She approached me one day. We were actually worked for Disney Cruise Line and she pulled me aside. I mean, the funny thing, when you work for Cruise Line, you're kind of sequestered with your coworkers for like a week or depending how long the voyages. So we had dinner and she's like, We should start a business. I'm like, We have jobs. It's like, no, no. It's like a side business. We're the perfect chief learning officer together. Like, all right. So we went to our senior vice president and we told her the deal. And she's like, First of all, thank you for sharing. Don't use Disney Time. Don't use Disney stuff. Good luck. And then that's kind of how Top Dog was born. And, you know, it's like a side hustle we did for several years. We basically would meet once a week, talk about how we tackle the training world. And I'll tell you exactly what the dog does in a minute. And then in 2000, late 2007, I found myself out of a job. I was fired from my last corporate gig. To this day, I live in Florida. Florida's right to work state. I still do not know why. However, in early 2008, I decided, well, I had this part time business thing, infrastructure. Let's make it full time and see what happens. And she kept working her way up the Disney ladder and actually retired a really, really senior manager. And then I started doing this dog house thing and basically, I like to say top dog learning group. We focus on four main areas. All right. Dog Health sits in four main areas, if you will. We focus on essential leadership. So it's kind of like the things you need to do as a leader. And then we define leaders. Anybody in the workplace who has influence, that's really everyone. As I like to say, all y'all, since I'm now a Southerner, we focus on inclusive leadership. So how can any leader create that sense of belonging and safety for any of the folks that they're working with? I do focus on LGBTQ plus leadership, obviously being the gay leadership dude, we can talk about that and then focusing on what we call resilient leadership. So how do you as a leader, lead people and also lead yourself through times of change? And we do those different areas in a bunch of different solutions off the shelf training online or in-person group coaching sessions. We do consulting services. I do a lot of keynotes and lunch and learns with virtual and in-person, and so it's been a really cool gig, you know, kind of having this dog house sit there for the last six years. Several bumps in the road. I'm sure if you're listening or watching you to have these bumps in the road over the 16 years. But knock on wood, it's been a pretty good ride and the dog is is quite healthy.

Britt East [00:04:50] That is so cool. Well, let's let's define some of these terms for for our audience like what is leadership means it's one of those it's one of those words we use all the time and it gets almost like so overused it can be compat. So help us understand, like, what are you specifically talking about? What is leadership.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:05:08] When you know? The first idea I had about understanding the concept of leadership was actually from my mom and my mom. And I'm very fortunate to still have both my parents. But my mom was a professional secretary. She worked at an elementary school pretty much her whole career, and it was a small elementary school and she was the only secretary and she reported the principal. But she or. In that school. I mean, she was she was the goddess. Everybody knew Joyce. Everybody had to go through Joyce to the point where if a prospective teacher would come in to have a job interview with the principal, you know, because report to my mom, she would send them in the principal's office. They would leave after the interview, and the principal would immediately come out and say, Joyce, how did they treat you? And it really kind of got me thinking about what leadership is versus position. My mom ran that school, but she wasn't in, quote unquote, charge. And I think that's the concept of leadership. Leadership is about influence within the workplace. So everything we talk about is leadership. And people are like, well, I don't have direct reports. I'm like, shenanigans. You do. You influence everyone else around you. And I think that's the way you should be thinking about leadership. It's not just for the person who has your five team members or the running this project over here. Everyone in the workplace is a leader. I think that's getting through that chain. First is the first step for people to accept that leadership is not about position, it's about influence.

Britt East [00:06:28] And so why is it important for queer people to be leaders or to embrace our role as leaders or to be better leaders?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:06:34] Yeah, there's so many reasons why. The first is that any any person who wants to be successful needs to figure out how to embrace some of these leadership competencies. And and one of the things that that I was pretty excited about when I wrote my not the last book, but then the book before that was really starting to understand and think about what does an effective leader do? Where do they focus their energies? And you're doing this for 30 years and work for that whole ton of leaders. You start to see what works and you start to see what doesn't. And so that's kind of where I started thinking about the top six leadership conferences that I think really make or break a leader. Any one doesn't matter if your career or not. So it's if you're not watching, it's authenticity, leadership, courage, having empathy, effective communication, building relationships and shaping culture. And so those are the ones that the leaders who are rocking and rolling are doing. These six those who are kind of crashing and burning aren't doing these six. So now put that through the rainbow lens, as I like to say. And if you're watching and, you know, you could see the beautiful rainbow happens to be six that perfect. Let's talk about authenticity. What any leader who wants to be effective really needs to be authentic. You know, the Bernie Browns of the world and a lot of other leadership gurus say if you want to be effective, you need to be authentic. And, you know, side note, instead of the gay leadership, dude, I actually want to call myself the gay Bernie Brown. But her people didn't like that so much, so I kind of couldn't do that. So But anyway, but yeah, so, so authenticity. You know, I'm a I'm a leader. People see that and people will trust you if you're being authentic. Now put that through the rainbow lens. If I'm an out gay man at work, if I'm that transgender person being my authentic self, that's powerful. And in my last book, Pride Leadership, I actually talk about how you channel that authenticity and that power that you're already exercising into effective leadership. And so I think both not just for our own personal gain or professional success, do queer folks and non queer folks need to be thinking about leadership, but also with the things that are happening against our community and against many other underrepresented minorities? It takes effective leadership to steer the course through that and beyond and make effective change and make inclusivity.

Britt East [00:08:35] So are these qualities something that all of us have intrinsically? Do we have to learn them? Do we have to practice and hone them? What are these?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:08:44] It's a great question. I equate leadership, like, say, athleticism. You know, some people can just get on the field, get on that core, get on wherever, and they just pick it up and go. Others really have to work at it, just like any other new practice that you're doing. So I argue that, yes, some people might be gifted in some of these things like, I'm a very empathetic person, Fantastic that you're just one step ahead. But if I'm not, you can work at it. That's fine. There's lots of skill building activities, areas of focus, reading books, taking classes, practicing that you can build up these skills. You just may be starting in a different spot, just depending on who you.

Britt East [00:09:19] Are and and how. If I'm a leader and I have other leaders in my organization and we're all have different kind of like skills and capabilities, how do we influence each other?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:09:36] And you know, it's funny, I had somebody asked me not too long ago, what's one of the secrets to effective leadership? If I had to pick one thing and it's actually effective feedback so pilots falls under the communication kind of area, but the concept of feedback and listening I think is one of the most underutilized leadership tools out there. And it's not just listening like, I hear you, Brett. That's great. No, it's it's really listening to what you're saying. And Stephen Covey, if you're familiar, big leadership guru back in the 90s and O's, to paraphrase him, he said something to the effect of we often listen to respond versus listen to understand. And I think smart leaders who are working with other leaders within their workplace and again all your leaders, because everyone has influence, are really doing that. Communication back and forth are listening to what people are saying and sometimes not saying. And in providing that feedback in a non-biased, non-judgmental way so that we can help grow together. And I think that's one of the things I see in smart organizations that are feedback rich. So they're using feedback as a way to say, You know what? I just want to be better. I'm not going to be perfect as a leader. I'm going to hiccup and I'm going to empower you, my friend, to call me out on it, but in a respectful way. Are you okay with that? Sure, Steve. So then when I see something in a meeting like, Hey, Steve, maybe you want to rephrase it this way. Thank you for that. I did hear that. Well done. Move on. And that's really what helps everybody grow out. You know, the whole a high tide raises all ships thing. If we're all embracing that concept of feedback in order to give that gift and grow, then we're really going to succeed no matter where our leadership style is. Start.

Britt East [00:11:11] It sounds like you're almost describing relationships of relatedness, building trust and, you know, with a lot of the adverse experiences that many of us have had, whether it's through structural homophobia, straight supremacy, whether it's through issues with our family, whether it's through feeling marginalized, being disinvested. You know, those relational skills can be tough for people in our communities. So how can we learn those?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:11:39] You know, if I look at the six competencies that are that are behind me, it's really a combination of of many of them. And I think that's what I also love about these six. And I really I pulled in my one of my BFFs who does a lot of the same leadership organizational development stuff that I do. And he's he's one of my besties. So I bribed him on a Friday afternoon with the bottle. I was sitting in my office and I said, What? I did a bunch of research before he got there. And I said, What do you see as the companies that really make a difference in the workplace? And we had Post-it notes all over my office of all the different things, we started grouping them together. And that's kind of how this started. And again, if you're not watching, it's authenticity, courage, empathy, communication, relationships and culture. But the cool thing about all these is they are not little silos. Yeah. And yes, in my books I treat one as a chapter, but they are so gorgeously intertwined and so, you know, you can't build relationships. For example, if you're not being empathetic, you can't build or shape a workplace culture if you're not having some courage to maybe make some things different. I can't be my authentic self and expect to go back to relationships, connect with other people. And so I think as we look at ways that queer folks and non really engage in these things, yeah, that whole relationship thing, I often say in many of my classes in the books that if you're doing authenticity, courage, empathy and communication, you're already building relationships because usually we're talking about you're engaging with other humans and it is just like any other relationship you have. Smart leaders are building trust. How do you do that? You connect with folks in an honest and mindful sort of way. And so if you're doing that already with your friends, you can do that with those coworkers that maybe you're not super excited about. But as long as you approach it in that empathetic, respectful way, you're going to have good ground.

Britt East [00:13:28] It almost sounds like connection. These fostering these relationships is a choice. It's not just something that magically lands in our lap, but something that we decide to do. Like, Hey, here's my lived experiences, here's who I am as a person, and this other person has all of their lived experiences, who they are, their cultural stuff. They're up to their affinity is all that kind of stuff, and I'm going to choose to embrace them all that they are, all that I experience, all the I know that they are in this professional setting, through this professional lens, I'm going to choose to embrace them and find points of connectedness, even if, you know, there might be parts of our all of our lives that we share. But it's like a pragmatic choice. Am I on the right track here?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:14:15] Yeah. Absolutely. But, you know, I think, too, as speaking as as, you know, a member of an underrepresented minority who's on on the front lines these days in the culture wars, you know, I teach a lot of diversity or second inclusion, inclusive leadership, all that. So so I live in this world where we try to understand others, but you also have your own value system. And I've been using that conversation with a lot of folks. You know, just because you work with someone doesn't mean they have to be your BFF. Fine, but you do need to adhere wherever you work to your workplace values. And honestly, I've yet to work with a client partner who somewhere in their corporate values, isn't something about embracing differences. Great. So you know, I can sit next to you or work with a client or whatever who maybe has very different personal values. But if we both work using the workplace values, then we're okay. Now the challenge becomes when that individual who has their personal values, I don't like others and the workplace says, No, no, no, we embrace inclusiveness and differences. That's an internal conflict that person has. And that's where I say you need to have a conversation with yourself because you're going to work here at X, Y, Z place. You're expected to. Be like this. That's the baseline, the way we do business. And it really makes people start to think like me. Okay. So, you know, I don't necessarily want to embrace this DUI stuff. But if my workplace says I have to, that's the expectation, then maybe this isn't the place you should work. And having those hard conversations with people has been really interesting. And so I often start the conversation with someone who has very different personal values in me. Something to the effect of. That's a very interesting perspective. What got you there? And then that whole listening to understand thing. And usually you start to unpack that and then have that dialog versus, you're one of those blank people who votes this way. I can't be with you anymore. And yes, I'll admit that's hard for me sometimes to approach. So I've really been shifting my focus to say, you know, it's not necessarily about a party affiliation. It's the values that lead you to support that specific area. And why. What is it about those values that got you to support that person or that topic or whatever is the difference that we have?

Britt East [00:16:30] Yeah, it's like you're describing cognitive dissonance, like where we might and I've experienced this personally and because I have a corporate career, aside from getting to host this podcast and I have certainly worked with coworkers who I am absolutely convinced that they had genuine affection for me, both personal and professional and and feelings of friendship, and would also vote to send me to a concentration camp tomorrow. And so, like how we as queer people wrestle with that internal experience of acknowledging what's real. Like earlier, like you described, I would cast those people out. I would cast them off. I'd like, screw you, I want to know you or whatever. But as I matured and grew, I saw the and especially meeting the the love in their eyes, the genuine affection for me. It really threw me because I just assumed that they, you know, would only wish harm for me. But to see them with the general affection to experience all these positive workplace situations and emotions and to also hold the other truths as well simultaneously, that they might vote in ways that would actually harm my body in my marriage, in my life, which are ultimately unloving acts. You know, I can't help but wonder if some of these questions are meant to be lived and not answered. Meaning if there's there is dignity and grace and wrestling with these questions as opposed to definitively with certainty, casting people out of our lives, out of almost some sort of a purity test.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:18:11] You know, I often say that I am so happy that I'm gay because otherwise I wouldn't have had that otherness experience because, you know, you might see me. I'm a white cisgendered gay dude, but if that gay part wasn't there, how would I have interacted with the world? What lived experience would I have had had differently? I acknowledge right now I automatically have privilege as a white dude. Then you throw the gay thing. Now I got thrown back a little bit. But had that happened, my experience might have been very different. I may not have really gravitated toward teaching inclusivity as a way to make a living. And so I think you're right, Brett. I think sometimes it's it's understanding that otherness. And actually in a lot of our inclusive leadership programs, I help people see that because, you know, when I am in front of 30 white cisgendered straight dudes and they're like, you know, arms folded look like they just ate a lemon because they were volun told to be in my class. On, you know, being an inclusive leader. I help them first, see that they're diverse too. And I use this really cool model I've been using it for since I started doing diversity stuff like when I was at Disney. And it's called The Five Layers of Diversity. And if I could real quick, I'll kind of walk folks through this because it's a really cool tool to help really break down some of those barriers. And this is by two women, Lee Gordon Schwartz and Anita Ro, really awesome, trailblazing women in the DNA space. And they said, you know what? Every human is made up of these five layers. And so the first layer is what they call personality and personality is, you know, no one will be like Britt. No one will be like Steve, even though I'm a twin. If you know any twins, they're very different. Their personalities are different. And so at its core, what makes you you in diverse is your personality. I'm an introvert. I'm an extrovert. I'm this that. Yeah. So that makes you, you know, next layer out Gordon Schwartz and Rowe talk about is their internal dimensions and these are things that are pretty locked in. But you know, there's a little malleability here. There are things like gender or gender identity, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, your physical ability. Most of those are pretty locked in. Obviously sound like physical ability might change. Obviously my age is going to change each year, but I, you know, I can't change that. And that's usually where people when they say, diversity, it's about this stuff. Yeah. And you guys, as our improv friends say, so then they say there's the next one is the external dimensions. And these are things that that may change sometimes even daily, but they do impact how you look and interact with the world. Things like my geographic location, my income, personal habits, religion, my physical appearance, my recreational habits, my education, my work experience. If I'm a parent or if I'm married. Those all impact things. You I'm not a human parent in this lifetime. Is is Brett, you and I were talking before we started recording. I am a canine parent, so that might make things a little. Different on how I look at the world than someone who does have human kids. It just is what it is. My single friends look at the world a little differently than me as a married person. So those are fine, but those are things that still impact my my way of interacting with the world. Then they go into organizational dimensions. And these are in the context, of course, of the group that you're with. So it could be the workplace or wherever. So it's like where you physically sit. You know, which division, which your work content. I'm in accounting. I'm in sales. I'm on the front line in the factory, on the floor, Whatever it looks like. Could be my seniority, could be where my work location is. I'm in the New York office. I'm in the Arkadelphia, Arkansas office, whatever that looks like. So now it starts to tie to geography a little bit. It could be my I added this concept called legacy organization because I work with a lot of mergers and acquisitions, and you often hear people say, you're from the old blank, blank, blank place that we bought. And so they treat you different because, yeah, it was a different lived experience. And so these are also ways that we interact with the world. And then the last layer that they added just not too long ago was called Country of Operation. So the concept is wherever you're physically sitting in the world, does interact with how you look at the world. So it could be the political system, the economy, the laws, the language, the values, the business etiquette, the social structure. I often use the example. For whatever reason, I have four of our big clients who are all German based, multinational, but they're all Germans. I don't speak German. I mean, it just happened to be that way. And I've noticed that that country of operation permeates throughout for the concept of timeliness. If you are familiar with the German culture and not going into any stereotypes, but in Germany, timeliness is a sign of respect. So if that meeting starts at noon, I know my German friends or the folks who work for Germany, these companies about five minutes before is what happens. Now, I also have sitting in central Florida, I have a lot of friends who are from the Latin community and they often tell me that like, yeah, there's is that like real time? See for Latin time? And again, it's not a stereotype, but the concept of timeliness is just slightly different. Not better or worse. It's just different. And so if that meetings at noon so my Latin next friends may or may not, depending on who they are, get back to personality. They might be there five minutes and they're like, well, that's when the meeting really starts. The first five minutes is people to get there, settle down, get their coffee, you have to chat, and then you have the meeting. Neither one was right or wrong, but it is the country of operation that permeates. And so I think when you sit down with somebody to make that long winded story, not so long when you sit down with somebody and they immediately go to those internal dimensions. Yes. But you find those ways to connect to maybe in those external mentions or the organizational dimensions of operation and really connect with that person and kind of move the conversation from there.

Britt East [00:23:36] That is so helpful. Like, I don't think I want to put that in my fridge so hopefully everybody can watch this on YouTube when he posted because he's he's he's sharing some amazing visuals that was really, really clarifying. And what I like again is it reinforces the concept of choice, which is a function of self-empowerment. So it's, you know, as an employee in any industry, in any workplace setting, I might be thinking to myself, okay, how am I going to move this opportunity forward, this challenge, resolve this challenge, drive the business forward, whatever efficiency, revenue or whatever dimension you're you're seeking to to add value to. It's a choice in the understanding, okay? It involves people. So it's going to be messy and it's not going to just follow a perfect plan from A to Z. And I'm going to make the choice to find points of connection, understanding this kind of self empowering framework to find points of connection. And it doesn't mean that I'm selling out my community. It doesn't mean that I'm a sellout. It doesn't mean that I'm a capitalist pig. It doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. In fact, just the opposite. I feel like it helps us honor the intrinsic complexities of all of our lives and cultural norms and identities.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:24:55] And I think, you know, as we look at how divisive the world can be at times, you know, and I've done this exercise before where I have a little handout and there's little spaces for all those dimensions, adversity, and people are supposed to fill them in, you know, like, I'm I'm this. I'm married, I have kids. I'm you identify as white, I'm gay, blah, blah. And then they sit down with somebody who they don't know and they they discount the ones that are in common, not the ones that are different. And it starts to really help people see that because so many folks go right to the internal dimensions and that's it. And that fact, even when I'm starting to work with a client partner and they're like, we want to be more inclusive, we'll bring Steve and Top Dog in and I've got a great team and it might be me, one of my top dog like consultants and you know, well, start to ask those questions like, would you consider your workplace inclusive? Absolutely. Steve We have Blank month. Great. But let's go further than that, you know, And so it really using this model really helps people open their eyes to what the concept of true diversity looks like.

Britt East [00:25:55] Well, let's explore that. Some, like you previously referenced a term, a phrase consciously inclusive leadership. What does that mean?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:26:04] So quick story. I when I first started playing around with this stuff, as I said a few moments ago, it was when I was at Disney and I was doing a training class on unconscious bias. And I remember some of my first ones, and there was a person in the back who, again, that clearly was volun told to be in this session on unconscious bias. You know, arms folded, ate a lemon or just really hours early. So a break happens and I go up to Pat. We'll just use that name and said, Pat, is there something on your mind? Yes. Dave, you talked about unconscious bias. Yes, that's that was the first topic we talked about. So unconscious, I can't do anything about it. And that gave me a massive gift that day because it really got me thinking about, well, people, if they say unconscious bias, they just automatically assume, well, I can't do anything about it's unconscious. So from that day forward, I started using the antonym or the opposite consciously inclusive. So it's we can think about it to be inclusive for some things that might be natural, others we might have to work at it, and that's okay. But the concept of having unconscious bias and saying I can't do anything about it is this shenanigans You can. It takes work just like anything else. You want to get better at any other skill. And for some people, it might be very easy because they don't have those hard, fast biases that they grew up with over time and all that good stuff. Others, it might be very deep, ingrained and it may take a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of actions of people from that. Whatever group you're not feeling comfortable with or have a bias against. But I think it really using that phrase pushes the concept that we can do something about it. It just takes effort and really focus on the conscious.

Britt East [00:27:37] I absolutely love that. I really love the jujitsu you did on that on that phrase. And I love the phrase consciously inclusive leadership. I'm definitely going to plagiarize that. And again, I love it because of the empowering choice part. I love it because it recognizes, hey, it requires a commitment from me and I have to start where I am. And even if I'm not the most perfectly conversant in the dynamic array of terminology and jargon that a community might be using in any particular moment, I'm going to try and I'm going to get it wrong. But because I'm establishing this good faith effort every day along the way to do a little bit better, I'm going to build trust and people are going to give me space and grace and educate me and help me to be the best version of myself, to create the best work environment that I can.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:28:29] Hundred percent. And you know, when you think about what you all just said, it's it's really thinking about those six competencies that that I had up here. Here they are. You're doing all these six. You literally are you just, like ticking them off in my head. You're having empathy, you're building relationships. You're helping to shape a workplace. Yes. And that's why it works. And I think if we go into a situation in the workplace or beyond where we give that ownership, hey, look, I just I love what you said. Be my better self. Be my best self. If you're approaching leadership from that heart centered, I just want to be better. Call me out on it. Respectfully. Yes. That is why feedback is such a game changer when you're trying to create a more inclusive workplace and a more inclusive self. It's because you're giving permission for folks to see honestly what your unconscious may be manifesting and you just don't know it. But when you empower folks to do that, you really opens up the world for people to help direct. And now they're an active member of helping you be a more a better version of yourself. And that's a that's a cool place to be.

Britt East [00:29:30] Yeah. And we're not being Pollyanna here. We're not saying to be delusional, to be in denial, to to deny the exhaustion that comes with living in a society that saturated and straight supremacist. We're not saying to like give people a free pass. We're not being transactional. What we're saying here is to recognize the inherent messy nature of human relationships and the intrinsic value and dignity that's involved in transcending that and making that commitment to really get to know one another. And, you know, there's so many people who would love us given half a chance. And when we hold them hostage to jargon, impurity tests and, you know, we are inadvertently painting ourselves into a corner, we're inadvertently sub optimizing when our advertently limiting our access to love, to career advancement, whatever dimension we're using. Yes, there's going to be deal breakers. Yes, there's going to be people that you alluded to at the very beginning. There's going to be people who are just like nonstarter. There's only so far we can walk together. But by and large, I I've been doing this a long time. By and large. I just feel like. Where we consciously make the decision, commitment to find points of connection and explore that and honor that and gently nurture those relationships. They're going to reciprocate because we have our own blindspots and our own shortcomings, and they're going to help us as well. Yeah. And it's like that rising tide that you talked about. Again, that is that bottom bar. That is how culture is built. It's not just the CEO of a of a company putting something on a PowerPoint. It's the daily decisions we all make at every level of an organization, how we're going to show up, you know. Now, having said that, I'm hoping maybe you can talk about how employers who I because I encounter this all the time. I work with a lot of straight brokers right now. And so it's like a lot of these dudes, they just don't have a clue how to get started. So how can a quote unquote, well-meaning employer or leader force start to foster this culture of belonging in their workplace?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:31:47] You know, I it's actually part of my keynotes and a lot of the training classes that I do and I really break it down into three, three areas of focus and thinking, speak up and act out. If you're not watching the video and it's not too hard to do. When we talk about the the concept of think in, it's really understanding yourself what what unconscious biases do you have? And there's a lot of cool assessments out there, free stuff online you could do if you Google project implicit it's a house by Harvard is a consortium of three researchers back in the late 90s who said, Can we measure people's unconscious bias and their view. Some would argue, yeah, you can. And so whatever it is, find out your own unconscious biases because you can't bias yourself, which is a real word until you know about your own stuff. And so, you know, that's kind of the first step for for any workplace, any organization that wants to embrace creating a more inclusive, a conscious, inclusive space. You've got to get the individuals to do some internal focus first. So that's the thinking part. Then the next one is the speak up and Speak Up is really thinking about, you know, how you're interacting with the folks around you. And it could be the language you're using. Are you using inclusive language? When someone says a disparaging comment, what do you do? There's this concept called silent collusion, where I'll tell a quick story because it's actually a real story. I was in Atlanta in a conference room with a client partner was the last meeting we did this big inclusive leadership project. It's myself and Laurie, one of my top doggers and everyone's in a great movie is like 40 of us in the room, close out the project and at the top of the table kind of at the end was the senior executive, the executive sponsor. And they literally are the ones who signed the checks, the piggy, the top dog. And so they were they were the top dog on this little project, if you will. And we're just about to start the meeting and you hear that senior executive who's male and that's important to story say, well, you know how women drive. And we all just went silent. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, we all just. We're like. We like, no one said anything, but we just kind of looked at the head of table like, did. Did I just hear that? And, and but at that moment, since no one said anything, we were all engaging in silent collusion. We were silently agreeing or supporting that, quite frankly, stupid statement that was said. And that's another thing that I see workplaces do or even specific leaders really don't do well, is have that confrontation. Now we're getting to that leadership courage thing we talked about. I wanted to go, but if you want to create an inclusive workplace, you can't let those moments go by. You have to do something to make it. First of all, knowing that you're not on board with that kind of stuff. And second, you addressed that person, in this case, that senior executive, in a respectful way. And, you know, I, I have this whole little strategy that I teach in my keynotes and some of the things and it's called mops. And it's kind of how do you in that moment not engage in seclusion kind of beats on inclusion. So and it's a stupid little idea I created. If you're looking at the video, there's this dog on there and it's a Hungarian pulling mop, which they call mop dog. And I say, his name is Sam. And so if you take Mop Sam the mop breed and named Sam, you get mop Sam And it's it's really cheesy. But when you're in that moment and someone says, you know, a woman drive and you're either part of the group that's being disparaged or you're just maybe offended by it, your emotions are there. And so in that moment, sometimes it's hard to remember what to do. And that's why I created Mop. Sam So there's six things you could do and, and I won't go through all six at this moment. You know me. I'll point say, ask, Move and the show notes. We'll put a link to free training we created around it. But my favorite one in Mop Sam Well there's two. My my favorite is the A is the ask. So you basically just ask the person what they meant by that statement and we'll say Bob is a senior executive at the head of the table. And it might just sound like, Bob, what did you mean by that statement? Now, you know, with a lot of these tone, intonation, rate of speech are very important. So I could say, Bob, what did you mean by that statement? Same words. Yeah, right. Really different meeting Bob Shields go up, gets defensive. Now we're not communicating. So this is my favorite one because it really most of the times people are acting out of that unconscious. So that's why the thinking is an important part to start. But what you're doing is you're calling someone out on that unconscious bias. In this case, with the language I use just by asking him, Hey, what did you mean by that statement? I use a very similar phrase earlier when I was talking about someone who maybe has very different political views and me. That's a very interesting perspective. How did you get there? Now, if you notice in both those, I'm very neutral. I'm not accusatory, and that's an interesting perspective. How did you get there? Again, very different meaning. And so I think if we teach each other how to ask these types of questions in a neutral, honest, open tone and a respectful tone, then we'll have that dialog and just kind of finish this one out. The other, the second favorite one that a lot of folks used out of the mop, Sam, is the S would you say a non word that at least indicates you don't agree with what's being said? And that's actually what happened in this situation. And it's words like, whoa, what's Dan? And so, you know, a gentleman who was who was sitting there, I was actually about to say something because that's kind of how I roll. And Lori kicks me under the table and she's like, wait. And and so I'm like, okay. So I waited and I'll tell you in a moment. But this gentleman who was not even sitting at the table younger in the organization, I think just got out of grad school or whatever and just joined the company, just folded his arms after Bob said, you know, we we drive and just went to him. And so immediately he sent the signal like I'm I'm nonverbal. But what Bob just said and then what that did is kind of let the floodgates go. And then some people did they ask you, Bob, what did you mean by that? And it's such a good way. Now, the good thing is, yeah, it makes it known that I'm not there. That part is it doesn't address it with the person perpetrating that microaggression, which is what we call these these types of things. So and the reason why Lori kicked me and said was because the project we did was an inclusive leadership program and it was basically like their final exam. We didn't plan for to see what happened. And so they did eventually pass, which is great. But these types of things do take practice and they do take courage. And so that's kind of where the speak up comes into play And then act out to kind of round this out is, you know, really thinking about what do you do to create an inclusive space for everyone. And so this is where you collectively as a team and a team, as everybody really start to think about what who are we not including? And it could be little things like policies. Real quick story. I had a client partner. We did a project together and then the person, the head of h.R. Called me and said, Hey, Steve, I want to share something with you based upon the conversation, the project we did with your team, we actually changed our bereavement policy to include non-human family members and I don't even work for that company. And I started getting a little choked up because, I mean, probably like with you, Brit, because, I mean, my canine kids are my life. I love them. They're going to be that's where my paternal. Dan gets channeled. And when I lost my my my canine daughter, I was I was broke. And to have a company say, you know what? We honor that relationship that you had, that love, you felt that if you need bereavement, good for you. We're here to support you. Go. And that's a tiny little policy change. But that sends a world of difference of inclusion to people who maybe do. And it doesn't matter if you have human kids or not. You can still have canine feline feathered, you know, children. It doesn't matter. You develop that perfection for them. So the act out is kind of that what are the big and small things we can do to show that we are being an inclusive workplace? Maybe it's by the policies, maybe it's by the artifacts. You know what's when you have that brochure, it says, here's our family benefits. What's that family look like? You're doing that training class and you get an image of a leader. What's that leader look like? And so it's really going beyond just the standard to think about how are we creating that inclusive workplace. So think in speak up and act.

Britt East [00:39:39] I just love that so much. What a great story. You know, I was thinking about a couple of things during that story, one of which is the importance of nonverbal communication, which you indicated with tone of voice. But it's also for people not watching the video. It's also physical mannerisms and body language and stuff, as we all know. And so the mode of communication is really critical. Meaning if you're texting, somebody might want to stop and take a moment and think like, is this really the mode of communication that's going to lead to some positive outcome that's mutually beneficial, or am I just popping off, You know, same with social media, email, all of that kind of stuff. There's a hierarchy to the to the emotional intimacy that can be established any given moment. Of course, in-person is always best, and that's one of the main things. And when I mentor younger folks in the, you know, of any sexual orientation in the corporate spaces, like you cannot bypass relationships. You have to business is about relationships and you have to spend time physical if possible, you know, virtual if necessary. But there has to be that that component. So you can pick ups, You can signal those. Exactly. She's pointing to the the relationship pillar there and it just can't be bypassed. And then you think about the way we relate. It's through this communication piece, which is the pillar right above that. And so it's like you can't bypass the message.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:41:09] Yeah, it's funny, I often think about the very first class I took in my doctoral program and as you said in the intro, my doctorates in instructional technology and distance education, basically e-learning. And, you know, prior to a pandemic, a lot of people would be like, what the hell? You know, like what it what is that? And in that very first class, my professor said, you know, I just going to set expectations. You will never, ever replace the in-person experience. I don't care what technology is out there, you will never replace that in in this case, in-person classroom experience. However, using technology, whatever tools are available, we can get as close to it as possible. And I think what's been really cool is now I got my doctorate in in this in 2005. So the technology landscape looked very different. But, you know, people were like, distance learning is fairly new. No, As a kid growing up in the 70s, I remember Sally Struthers, and if you have no idea what I'm talking about, Google it. Talking about your correspondence courses where you would take tests and you send me in the mail and then they come back, that's distance learning. So this is certainly been around since the 1800s. But, you know, just technology and the mode of that learning has changed and evolved. So but but that human connectedness is what has stopped us. But I think what the pandemic has shown is that you can build relationships via distance. You can do it right now. I get on a lot of webinars, I do a lot of podcasts, and I often tell folks now I give them an out because I know some people have some, you know, neurodiversity and don't like the camera thing, and I respect that. So I say, if you don't have the physical bandwidth, meaning your your tech maybe isn't working. And I have some, you know, some my some my students especially my career leadership programing there, they're literally around the globe. So some places have better Internet than others. That's fine. But if you know, if you're doing it because I don't I just know you want to shop on eBay, Steve, while you're doing this class or whatever, you know, I call people out because if you're trying to connect with folks, I need at least your eyes. I want to see your gesture, even if it's just this little square box and had that connectedness. And so I think we can all do that, whether we're in a hybrid work environment or physical together completely via distance, we can take that step to build those relationships, whatever medium and situation or context we're in. But it takes a concerted effort, like just like you said.

Britt East [00:43:27] Yeah, absolutely. And again, coming back to that choice and self-empowerment and I guess I can hear some of my audience thinking about like to themselves, like isn't this just unpaid emotional labor? Like, why is the onus on me to both experience the bigger. And to fix it. But I don't think that's what we're saying. I think what we're saying is to take charge of your life and to make choices based on, you know, often pragmatic choices based on the moment, What does the moment require and what does the moment ask? And what opportunities are available to you in a given moment. Some moments are going to be tired. Some moments you're going to be less than full capacity and you might make one choice versus another. Some moments you're going to be ready to take one for the team and be ready to dive in and help.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:44:13] I talk so much about this and provide leadership. And you might have seen Bridges where, you know, in the chapter on shaping workplace culture, you know, many of us others are put in a situation to be the educator. You know, we go, it's Black History Month. Hey, black employees, you teach us what we need to know. Yeah. And I give folks an out. You know, it's we're recording this during LGBTQ plus History Month in part in many parts of the world. And, you know, some folks are on the hook. I got to teach about trans rights. I got to tell them about Stonewall. I got you know, but have some grace for yourself and tap out if you need to. And that's where if you have an employee resource group or you have other queer folks or awesome allies, you know, take a break. You're not your job because of your demographic is not to be the educator for everyone. Now, if you choose you so awesome, you do it. Help make the world a bit more inclusive by education, but don't feel that you have to. And I think that's the misnomer for the lot of the folks I work with, especially queer folks, is that they feel that they have to. If you have the bandwidth, fantastic. You do your day job versus your day job, fine. But if you can't, that's okay to give yourself some grace because you only have so much juice in your own battery. Find a way to maybe, you know, the Internet's amazing. I've had so many people, you know, hit me. And even though I'm not a part of the trans community, they are part of our family. And everyone knows that I'm, you know, the gay leadership dude. So they come to me and sometimes I say, you know what? Have you tried to Google that? Yeah, I guess like I'm like, You Google everything else. Why would you not want to Google? Why? Pronouns are important, you know? So, you know, sometimes, yes, of course I sometimes will sit down and not have the bandwidth, but sometimes I'm like, You know what? You can do the research, too. Why is it important for us to celebrate, you know, Latin X History Month, too? And so I think sometimes pointing people in the right direction without going down that rabbit hole is completely okay.

Britt East [00:46:04] Yeah. And again, I think it so much of that decision making comes down to the quality of the relationship. You know what you're willing to invest in it and what you've experienced up to that point. Like I was thinking of when you were telling that story is thinking of an h.r. Professional that i was in relationship with through work. Notice how i constructed that sentence, you know, orienting it around the word relationship instead of just making it a workplace transaction. And so I was invested in our mutual wellness and this person was really proud of the corporate participation in the Pride parade. And what I chose to expose to her is not all queer people are interested in going to a pride parade. Some of them think it's really fun, some of them think it's really revolutionary. Some of them have been there, done that, and they're not perceiving it as a benefit. And my point to this story is that allyship is not a binary. It's not that you turn it on or off. There's there's continuing education, there's continued exposure and investment into our communities. And when you have those relationships with people, you might feel more motivated all of a sudden to invest in the relationship by educating them and see it less as a transaction.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:47:18] I often say in a lot of our programs, smart allies know when to stand in front of one stand next to and when to stand behind the group that they're being a good ally for.

Britt East [00:47:29] That's really fantastic. You know, another thing I wanted to go back to into your story because it just brought up so much for me was let's put a microscope on what was happening in the moment where the person inadvertently revealed their blind spot about commenting on female drivers. We all have blind spots, especially in this day and age where a lot of our interactions are recorded for posterity. There's a pervasive feeling of fear that's just kind of like in the atmosphere right now where a lot of, you know, like I referenced earlier, I've been working with some straight dudes lately. Like a lot of them are just so afraid of saying the wrong thing. Then an unintended consequence means our relationship is deprived of what it might otherwise be, the love and respect we might otherwise share if we were to summon a little bit more courage and grace to allow each other to make mistakes. Conversely, the folks in the room, let's have empathy for them as well. All of a sudden, our pulse races, our heart races, maybe we're surprised. Maybe we don't know what to do. Maybe we start thinking about the mounts. We have to feed all of our professional commitments. How is this going to impact my career? We go through this litany of pragmatic calculations. In a microsecond to figure out what do I say? That's why I loved your framework, because it helps us practice that. Almost like a reflex, a reflexive action. And it gives us a wide array of choices and allows us to let ourselves off the hook, have self empathy for ourselves in the moment, and figure out a course of action that's best for us without judgment.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:49:05] You know, and a lot of people, you're right, hybrid are really scared to be canceled. You know, you hear the word cancel all the time. And but I think if we're as a workplace going into it, say, you know what, we are human. We are basing our existence on our our learned and our shared living experience. And so I may not know what our female colleagues have gone through. And so I empower them. And again, this is where if we're doing feedback, right, it works so well. Hey, call me out respectfully when I screw up, please. And I'll do the same for you. Is that okay? Yeah, that's okay. Cool. And then you move forward. So when I still do things wrong and I live in this space. I was doing a podcast not too long ago and the host, lovely host, a member of the trans community. And I'm going through and just talking about. yeah. And our our trans brothers and sisters. And he said without a beat and siblings you cover are non-binary. And I'm like, stupid Steve I know that. White And I'm like, Hey, thank you for that. And we both moved on. And so it doesn't have to be drama when you screw up because you're going to screw up if you are a human. But it's how we as a workplace culture deal with those screw ups. You know, I might say something pretty heinous. Someone educates me on that. The better way to say it now, now's the opportunity. If I do it again, Yeah, then I might deserve a little bit of, you know. Hey, Steve, we told you. But if I learn from that mistake and flip and tastic, you're done. And I think that's the attitude we need to foster a bit more. Is that respectful feedback, but also that grace when someone does mess up to educate them and then just kind of move forward.

Britt East [00:50:46] Right, Right. And again, with the relationships, if we're in relationship with them, I think that grace happens more naturally. You know, where it's like, hey, you know, we in this community can't even agree on the terminology. How is how are you as a straight person going to keep it all together when you don't even have the lived experience? So let me just honor the fact that like, you're trying and you said a word, get yourself some slack. And then that just cuts through it open. It's like the bubble burst and all of a sudden you can relate to each other as messy, flawed individuals, which is what we all really are.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:51:20] And if you're building trust, which is literally the secret to good leadership, you're building trust. And if I think about the six competencies when you do these six, that's the outcome. You're building trust with those around you. And if I have trust, then people are okay to make mistakes because they they know where you're coming from. Now, if, for example, someone correction the pronouns and you still mis pronoun them after like 12 interactions. Yeah. Then that's something a little bit different. And you have the right to call that person out again and there's something deeper happening. But if, you know, I just talked to a parent, my gosh, it was last week at a conference. I did a keynote and I had a booth and this wonderful woman came up and she's like, you know, I so love the work you're doing. Gay leadership, dude, I have a gay daughter and a trans child and they're lovely. But it took me seven months to get their their name correct. So my trans child, I said, So how did you do that? It's no, it wasn't name. It was the pronouns. She's like, I still keep screwing up the pronouns. I said, Well, how are you adjusting that? She's like, I just call them by their name, you know, no pun intended for the movie, but it's like she's like, until I get back into that sink. I said, And what did your child think of that? They're fine with it. And I thought, like a good solution. You do. You do you. They worked it out and figured it out. And that's kind of at the end of the day, we're all humans and we're all interacting with each other. And so whatever works to make that occur in a respectful way, awesome. But if you're doing it as a leader in, you know, you're just digging your heels in and not embracing, then there's an opportunity to have a conversation with yourself, right?

Britt East [00:52:51] And then on the on the flip side, if we are anointing ourselves as whole monitors, that is also unpaid labor to be the judge in the jury of the purity of the people that we're in that that we're encountering. And so again, it's exhausting. You're already exhausted just from living in the society. You cut yourself a break and let's relate to each other as individuals.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:53:15] That's why I love the mob.

Britt East [00:53:16] Sameh Exactly.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:53:17] If you have the bandwidth, exactly what did you mean by that statement?

Britt East [00:53:20] Bob Exactly. And there's a like you said, your framework gives us a variety of, of, of approaches. And as you said, if it's a pattern of behavior that's reflective of a pattern of choices, it's one thing to have a slip of the tongue the second time. The third time. Whoa. And then now you have hopefully your your workplace has. Some policies that you can lean into. You have relationships with the h.r. Team or whomever that you can go to for counsel and advice.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:53:50] And as a word of action, if you are encountering these types of things repeatedly. One of the best things to leverage in your favor is the workplace values and the workplace mission and vision. Because I guarantee you, as I said at the beginning, I've yet to encounter a client partner who doesn't have in their values somewhere about embracing differences might be phrased different ways. So when someone's really othering you or disenfranchizing you or anyone else have the conversation through the workplace values because that's the shared expectation you have, doesn't feel your personal values, even though they may align, but use those values like a sword and a shield in those conversations. And I do it with clients and I make sure to really understand what their values are. Case in point, if you follow me on LinkedIn, which I encourage anyone listening to do, when a lot of these companies have been pulling back on their embracing of diversity and inclusion, especially as it relates to queer folks and the HRC Index Global Equality Index, my first thing I do for Ford and I'm going to call names out because they own it Ford, Lowes, Tractor Supply, Insert all these not cool folks here. I go to their website, I screenshot their corporate values, and then I take a red line, a red marker, or at least a digital marker, and I start correcting their values because what they're showing me is not the values that they state. So they're really being performative. They're not being true to their corporate values. And I think that's the opportunity we all have to call folks out on it. Yes, they're being jerks against us. But you say you do business this way. You just made these statements and are doing these actions that go completely against your own values. Pick a lame buddy. Figure it out. Because until they do, we can absolutely call them out. And especially when they're disenfranchizing us or members of the queer community or any of us others who are out there.

Britt East [00:55:37] Yeah, couple of things. Steve is fantastic on LinkedIn. We're going to load up the show notes with all sorts of goodies where you can start to engage with his content. He does a lot of free content and service work. It's absolutely inspirational and beautiful. I highly encourage you to check it out. And I think also what you just described as the power of being publicly queer, whatever label feels like home to you, the emphasis on the word publicly, not on coming out, which is almost can be we we as queer people can make that about our families in kind of narrow caste. What that term means. What I've started to phrase it as a publicly queer meaning I'm standing up and risking all sorts of financial gain, backlash, whatever, to be a beacon of hope for other queer people around the world who who aren't in as fortunate a position. And if you are willing to be publicly career in your company, then you're going to have mentees seek you out. In those moments they may even might even trust you more than h.r. More than other. They might start with you depending on the nature of your relationship, depending on the nature of the corporation. And is that not what being a leader is all about?

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:56:48] Being that authentic self 100%. Yeah. And and actually talk about that in my leadership. In fact, you know, I got some really great advice from my editor as well as my publisher when Pride Leadership, the first book came out and she, you know, I had in the chapter on authenticity and leadership, something to the effect of if you are not out at work, stop reading this book. And they've really pushed back on me. And they were smart to do that because they were right. Because the comment that Jan, my awesome lesbian publisher, said, she's like someone reading this book who is now is probably the one who really needs to read this book the most. And I'm like, Jen, you're 100% right. Thank you. And but it's true. I mean, still, if you look at the data and I just mean we can research it from when Pride Leadership was written 2018 to when your career career which in my latest book that came out in March of this year both books cite how many people how many queer people in the US are actually out at work. It's still about the same 50%. And so you know what? But I you know, and I say this as someone of privilege who is out, who is a white, cisgender gay dude of a certain age, someone might not feel comfortable with that. And that's okay. So, you know, you can still be a quote unquote ally or be perceived as an ally or still support the community, even if you're you're secretly a part of it. And that's why a lot of big companies don't really ask sexual orientation for people who join the LGBT employee research group because they're like, you know what? If you're here, you're you're I'll just say, you know, queer embracing whatever that means, and that's okay. And so, you know, you do, you boo. But, you know, you, you do what's comfortable for you based upon your level of physical safety, mental safety, financial safety. But yes, it takes all of us being out there. And the more of us who are shouting from the rooftops, these things you're doing, tractor supply and loads are not cool the more that we can facilitate.

Britt East [00:58:42] Steve, What are some ways people can engage with your work? Like, we're going to load up the show notes, we're going to give them links, but just by and large, like how can they start to wade into your message? Learn more about you.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [00:58:52] Probably the easiest thing is to go to our main website, Top Dog learning.biz. There you'll find that different courses. We have the books, you can meet my team or follow me on LinkedIn. That's that's the main channel I do an Instagram to. They kind of do that. But LinkedIn, we have our weekly newsletter called Your Career Career based on my latest book. You can see when we're going to do free stuff. We also do have a free LGBTQ and ally monthly leadership networking event called Leadership The Leaders Circle. It's open to anybody. Come on in. We all throw like a ten minute. Here's the topic of the month. You a lot of little slides if you're watching are from those talks and then there's a lot of breakouts for people to mix and mingle and just be able to network and support and share their perspective just to build up more of a leadership community, both for LGBTQ folks as well as those awesome allies that are out there. But top dog learning that this is probably the main stop.

Britt East [00:59:47] That's awesome. That's really great. And in fact, for those of you watching the video, I'm holding up one of his books because I'm a big fan, not just hosting him here. So, you know, I've just learned so much from you, Steve, from your books, from your writing, from LinkedIn, from today. I cannot thank you enough from the bottom of my heart. You're just changing the world and helping so many people in our community. And I just think that's awesome.

Dr. Steven Yacovelli [01:00:10] Thank you. Thank you. It's truly a pleasure to be here.

Britt East [01:00:13] Wonderful. Well, dear listeners, you have done it. You have made it through another episode of Not Going Quietly. We could not do this without you. And thank you so much for your support. You are the heart of this program, this whole this program, and that's why we keep coming back. So thanks again. Thanks to our featured guest, Dr. Steven Yacovelli. Please check him out. I'm going to load up the show notes and give you lots of great links today. He does brilliant work on his website, on LinkedIn, among other social channels. Until next time, everybody. My name is Britt East of Not Going Quietly. Bye bye.

Britt East [01:00:46] You've been listening to not going quietly with your host Brit East. Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy. Check out our show notes for links, additional information, and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.