Real Sex Talk With Nina

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beal and Britt East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us for some courageous conversation because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Welcome to not going quietly, the podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we talk about everything that nobody wants to, because you all know you want to hear it. I'm here with my amazing co-host Jonathan Beale. Jonathan, how's it going today?

Jonathan [00:00:47] Very well. Very well. Enduring the cold British winters. But I'm good. How about you?

Britt [00:00:53] OK, OK, stop the podcast. We're going to have to do this better because in the US, Jonathan's in the UK, in the US, when somebody asks you how you're doing, the way you answer is "Perfect and improving." Everything's perfect in the US. Everybody's happy, everything's going great.

Jonathan [00:01:16] I'm following events in both the UK and the US, and I know that's not true. Anyway, shallI introduce today's guest? So today we have Nina from "RealTalk with Nina." Nina is a certified sex coach, speaker, podcast host and former health teacher. She's also a freelancer in the mental health space and is known for shining light on the most taboo aspects of being human mental health and sexuality. Nina uses humor, candor and compassion to help everyday people learn to embrace who they are. She's a firm believer that everyone deserves to live a life of intentional authenticity and radical self-acceptance. Welcome, Nina.

Nina [00:01:59] Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. I'm good. I'm great. Everything is perfect. Yeah, quick learner about my mental health. My mental health is totally great. The weather is tropical and gorgeous. And being a parent is like the easiest thing in the world.

Britt [00:02:35] Nina, just in case our audience doesn't happen to know, what is a sex coach? I mean, are you in our bedrooms with us? Do you like hold up scorecards when we nail the landing? What's going on here? You have to help me.

Nina [00:02:50] I actually bring a whistle and I wear this really sexy ref gear. And like, if there's a foul, you know, if it's like a straight couple and the guy misses the dismount, I like, throw the flag. You know, it's funny you mention that, but I've been asked, "So can you come to our house?" And I was like, It's not that kind of party, but like, it's not. It's not. But I will say that there's really two types of sex coaches in terms of modality, and I look at it as hands on and hands off. So there's experiential sex coaching where you can have sexual surrogates, which you're literally partnering with a licensed therapist and their client. And you do hands on work. And depending on the sexual surrogate, it can be full on genital to genital. It could be hands to genital. It could be whatever (you find that a lot in California). And there are also more of the tantric sex coaches where it's light touching and no genital contact. So. So we laugh. But I want to be really clear that there absolutely are incredible sex coaches that are hands on in a professional consensual way. Right? I didn't choose that route because I know myself, and that would be I have boundary issues just as a human right that I'm sure you guys have picked up on already. So I know that that just wasn't what I was interested in at all. I actually would feel very uncomfortable personally. So I do the the talk coaching. So really, what I focus on are all of the aspects and barriers that are preventing the singles or partnered folks from enjoying their sexuality with their individual sexuality and how that shows up in a relationship. I think, you know, 10 out of 10 people in this world are closeted in some way. I don't mean about orientation, necessarily. It's about their kinks, their fetishes, their fantasies, their desires and all of that. We all have something that we're going, "Oh man, this would really be amazing, but I will never share it with my partner, right?" And I mean, I think we are terrified of rejection, abandonment, judgment. That's kind of a human thing. And so what's more vulnerable than our sexuality and all of the craziness that comes with it? So I typically work. I typically work with couples. I have worked I have worked with singles, it doesn't matter who's ever struggling, I'm here, but most of my clients right now are couples. I have mixed orientation couples. I have mixed relationship style, so I have non-monogamous couples. Like that stuff doesn't matter. And it's really just most of the time it's sex drive mismatch, you know, like, I want it more than they do, or this is the kind of sex I want and they don't, or I don't know how to tell them what I want. Some of it is we have this fantasy and we have no idea how to bring it to life safely. You know, or it could be a little darker. You know, it could be like we're on the brink of a divorce and there's so much resentment. And I don't typically take on clients if I know that upfront, because to me, they deserve a licensed marriage counselor, not a sex coach. I can only take them so far, you know? But yeah, I don't. I don't come into your room. Although I have had clients tell me in the middle of sex that one of their one of their partners said Nina would be so proud of that. And I was like, honestly, I'm kind of honored that I'm in the space where you guys are boning. I mean, it's kind of hot, you know, but physically, no, I'm not there on video calls. Just talking, just talking.

Jonathan [00:07:03] Seems to me that predominantly it's a shame based thing, right? Like you talk about rejection, you talk about, you know, bearing deepest, darkest secrets and it being a risk based thing, right? If we if we share all of us, then then the potential there is for complete rejection. And because it's the deepest part of ourselves, you know that it's where shame lives. And yeah, yeah. I don't know where I'm going with that because, you know, this is me. And so who knows? Right?

Nina [00:07:37] But I follow you all the time like, I don't ever feel lost. And I thought, you said, when you're like, Oh, I went on a tangent like you did. I was right there. So I guess

Jonathan [00:07:50] I suppose just I would like to go there a little bit like shame, the shame where it's like, How do we disarm shame around sex?

Nina [00:08:07] Yeah, and it's interesting because that's also a huge issue. Oh yeah. Mastering masturbation in relationships. It's actually against the law and it means that you're cheating. Actually, if you ask me why you're in a relationship, that's absolutely cheating. You're falling for somebody else. Your own genitals. And you should just probably give up on the relationship immediately. Yeah. So, so basically, I need to end my marriage.

Nina [00:08:40] Oh no. And you found out today?

Britt [00:08:42] Welcome to the podcast!!!!

Nina [00:08:50] I'm going to fess up to masturbation and that I really do love myself more than anybody, and I'm just going to have to leave. But yeah, there's a lot of, you know, we feel so much safer in our own minds. And so to get it out of our own minds, all of a sudden it's it's visible for attack, you know, and our we are never taught how human sexuality works, you know, and how dynamic we are and how our fantasies often have zero to do with what we want in reality. Like, I joke, but it's not funny. My porn search, you would question my moral compass. Right? You would question my orientation. You would question my marital status. You would question you would question everything. And in real life, yeah. None of that. I don't want any of it. Right. And and I think that that's a lot of where the shame comes from is what does it mean that I'm turned on by x y z?

Britt [00:09:49] I don't understand. Like I thought you would just be at home masturbating to vacation photos of your husband like you actually turned on by other things other.

Nina [00:10:01] Hmm. I mean, me personally, no, I mean, I only get turned on by the sort of missionary with my husband, but that's because I'm in a healthy OK. You know, if you're in an unhealthy marriage, you're probably fantasizing about people that you don't know, sometimes that don't even have a face, you know? But clearly, you don't know my humor way. Sarcastic. I'm actually shocked if I ever hear somebody fantasize about their reality. I mean, definitionally, they're literally the complete opposite. Right? So I often tell people that. You can fantasize about your partner, if that turns you on. Often it doesn't, especially for women. Believe it or not, women are actually the first ones to get bored in a heterosexual, monogamous relationship. Now, because you know, our society is like, men need variety. Men need novelty men. Look, we're not dead. We just have a vagina, right? Like what? Who? We're like, We're not born going, You are going to be monogamous, pregnant in the kitchen, and you're going to love every second of it. Right? Not true at all. And it's why the Netflix show Sex Life...have you guys, you guys know about that? No. OK, so it went nuts. It was like one of the top shows in Australia for a while. I recommended it to all of my female clients because so many of them feel the way this woman did. It was basically. It was like one of the first shows that portrayed the woman in the relationship as bored and wanting excitement. And and I think very much like "Fifty Shades of Gray." It opened up a door where so many women are like, Oh my God, thank God, it's like, Yes, that's me. You're right. And it was basically this adorable heterosexual couple, and on paper, everything was picket fence. They had a kind, respectful relationship with children. Everything was perfect. And she starts journaling about a past lover that she had who was the complete opposite of her husband, and the husband finds this journal and opens up a bag of worms. And I think it really boils down to women are more psychologically. We need more stimulation as far as arousal and desire so monotony. Doesn't. Doesn't really do it. Oh, and I and I say and I and again throughout this show, I will totally own that when I speak, there are stereotypes and gender expectations. All of the same messages that we've all had and I and I understand that I'm challenging those. But their truth is, like a lot of that is based on truth, is that I say sometimes like oftentimes men are really happy just to get sex, right? They're happy having sex, whereas women could have sex five days a week. Seven days a week. But if it doesn't excite us, we can still easily be very bored. I think a lot of that is just based on gender stereotypes and we assume, you know, the water cooler jokes at work about the guys and they're like, Oh, it's got the old, the old lady at home, and I'd love to have a threesome with three other women. And and that's like acceptable talk. It's a joke. But the second a woman says what I would do to like, you know, get gangbang by the local college kids. You know, all of a sudden it's like, Oh, she's a freak. She's like promiscuous and she shouldn't be married. And I'm like, You guys were just joking about all of you being married and wanting a bunch of other women. Why is it any different?

Britt [00:14:16] Misogyny at its best right?

Nina [00:14:22] Yeah, yeah, no. You know, one of the greatest examples of this is I had an amazing couple that literally came to me saying, You know, the wife, I don't have a sex drive. I'm not sure I ever have. And I said, Cool, is there a clinical diagnosis? No. Then you have one. So we're going to figure out where that is, right? And she's like, You know, good luck, you know, and they literally had kind of. Just submitted to the fact that they were probably going to have a sexless marriage. Right. And and I like refuse to accept that unless there's a clinical issue or that both are OK with a sexless marriage was clearly, you know, the husband was not, but he was just great and just kind of like, Well, I'd rather stay with you sexless and not be with you. But I always ask about masturbation. This is where masturbation comes in. How can you explain to your partner what you want mechanically or mentally if you have no idea? Everyone looks at masturbation as so separate, like, Oh, but this is what I do over here, like, I can't do that with my partner. You know, and it's it's often and it's not just women like I have men that like I can only get off when I, you know, am laying down or I can only get off with this kind of a toy like, I can't do that with my partner. I'm just curious as to what like, where's the law written that you can't do that with a partner, was it does it not count? I don't understand rape, but there's this stuff that comes up when we talk about transferring what you do during solo sex to partner sex. People are like, No, no, I can't. I have to be in this weird position. My legs have to be really tense and I have to be seated. I'm like, Cool. What do you not like? Do your legs only tense when you're by yourself? And if you're with your partner, they just like, go limp. Like, what's going on? I don't like what's happening, you know? But it's it's what do you fantasize about? What kind of porn do you watch if you watch porn? Do you read erotica? What turns you on mentally? Right? And then that's what you have to share with your partner. And that sometimes is the hardest part, right? You know, especially orgasm gap speaking. Women don't always have a difficult time being like, Hey, that's my clit is kind of like your dick. Like, just treat it the same, you know? But when when we have to say, this is what I have to fantasize about her, this is the kind of conversations we have to have during sex to get me really turned on. That is like really hard for more often for women to be like, Hey, this is what I kind of have to fantasize about. And so this woman said, I said, Well, do you masturbate? Not off. And I'm like, Cool, but when you do, I'm assuming you're thinking about something. Uh. And I can. You can you share one of them? Like, even if you just start with the most vanilla thing, she goes to the greatest moment in history. She goes, I mean. If I'm going to get off like I usually think about my husband sleeping with another woman. And his face was like. Who are you? What did you do with my wife? And he looked at me like, how did you bring this out of her life? What's happening and an exorcism? Right, right? She was. And this is these are not newlyweds, right? He was like. Oh, my gosh, what? Well, first of all, you know, he responded like, well, what does this mean? Does she want an open relationship now? He went exactly where most people go. This is why we don't share our fantasies, because if I share, hey, I want, you know? You know, daisy chain, right? Then what if they're like, Oh my gosh, now you really want? And we're like, No, no, no. That's just what I think about to get off. I don't, you know, so I think that that's like probably the number one reason why people don't share their fantasies because in reality, if you slept with another woman in most couples, she probably cry and be like, I can't don't like vomit, you know, as you were just like, We're done. But it's different. You know, your orgasm brain is different. It's, you know, and that's the hardest part.

Jonathan [00:18:29] It strikes me that actually probably most of the motivations, if that's what most people's response is. And that means therefore you want something else, then then the place we always go is, well, I must not be enough.

Nina [00:18:45] Yeah. All right. One hundred percent. Mm hmm. And this the same thing with with with masturbation in relationships. Right? Well, he's always masturbating while I'm home. Why? Why wouldn't you just, you know, come to me? And so as a woman, sometimes I have to kind of speak out for the men and be like, What can I admit something? There are so many times when my husband and I are both home and one of us are masturbating in the face.

Britt [00:19:16] Nina, sorry to interrupt, but you know, we've already started recording. That was actually on the internet now.

Nina [00:19:27] Yes. I was like, Oh my God, I crossed the line. I never do that.

Britt [00:19:33] There are no lines you did great. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Nina [00:19:35] Keep going on right up to the line. So, yes, but yeah, and and it's just kind of like masturbation is easier. I mean, it is it's easier. I don't have to worry about what do I look like? Is he bored? Am I taking too long? Is he judging the porn that I'm watching? All of these things? They're gone. They're gone. It's just masturbation is just easier. It is a different mindset to get into YouTube for partnered sex. So but I think a lot of times people look at masturbation as the other woman or the other man. Right? And it's it's not to me, it's actually the complete opposite. It is like one of the greatest relationship tools on Earth.

Britt [00:20:21] I think we're going to get a lot of questions about this. I can sort of just feel it out there that because I think there are so many misconceptions about masturbation, solo masturbation within a within a partnership, even in the queer community. I know lots of gay guys get hung up on it, too. I suspect people of all sexual orientations can get hung up on it because of the relentless modesty culture, at least in the US. That is just saturates all of our media messaging about ways we should be, quote unquote, during sex. And so I want you to keep going on this topic a little bit because I can feel people thinking to themselves like, Wait a second. I mean, I hear the words that you're saying, you know, but isn't it the reason that they're doing this behavior, especially if it's solo, especially if it's secretive because I'm not providing something to them in at least some small way? And that's separate in the from rightness and wrongness and blame, isn't it? Just still because they are experiencing a lack on some level and what I'm giving them?

Nina [00:21:37] That's a great question, and if you look at the reasons why people masturbate right, even look at yourself, even though I know you guys don't masturbate because it's disgusting, but you know, I'll take one for the team, you know, and I'll be like, I do. OK. The reasons why people masturbate, they're bored. They're stressed, they're horny. And there's no one around to do something with. And this is one of the reasons could one of the reasons be their partners may be kind of hitting a dry spell right now and their libidos kind of shot, right? And so they can't necessarily they don't want to put pressure on their partner when they know their partner's not really feeling it right now. Sure. Could it also be that there is a complete disconnect sexually in their relationship? Yup. That could be something to write. So for usually what I say is if there is zero sexual contact with each other. And only solo and only masturbation going on for a, you know, a length of time. Again, I wouldn't say that the relationship is doomed or broken. I would just say, Hey, let's talk about it, right? Because it could be. I mean, over the pandemic, I there were like three or four months where I was like, sex was the last thing on my mind. Me, me, right? I was just it was the furthest thing. But when I was bored or stressed, I absolutely masturbated and I wasn't even horny going into it. It was just like, It's like when you eat, when you're not hungry, it's like that. You know, it's a coping mechanism for a multitude of reasons. So I would just say. To jump immediately to I am not enough. Is more a reflection of our. Culture when it comes to everything, relationships and sex, and it also starts to put pressure on your partner to start hiding it because they don't want you to feel that way. Right? Because often times, not all the time. I get that, but oftentimes it has nothing to do with your partner. Right? And even if it has something to do with your partner, it is oftentimes nothing detrimental or long term. Right? Are there situations where it is? Yeah. But I mean, that's that's with with anything. I said the majority of the time when people masturbate. It's just it's it's easier. It's a it's a it's a crime of opportunity, you know? And yeah, it might be that they only feel comfortable by themselves fantasizing about certain things, and it's hard to do that with partnered sex. So bottom line, being just walking, talk about it. Just talk about it. So I know that is easier said than done. I get that I have a career because it's hard to talk about it, right? But it's like if you if you want to know the answer, just have a conversation. And the way you communicate about it is going to dictate how your partner responds. Right. So if you come at your partner going, you make me feel like I'm not good enough. Right? You're always masturbating. What's wrong with you? You're like obsessed with porn. All of a sudden your partner goes. If I engage in this conversation like it will never I will never win this conversation, and then all of a sudden, you're just now there's shame. Right now there's shame on your partner. Like, Oh my god, what is wrong with me? I do watch porn a lot. Maybe, maybe I have an addiction. And that's another whole, a whole other thing. The word addiction when it comes to anything sexual is very problem problem. It was not problem. Some problem that I think it's problematic. There it is, Jonathan. Very problematic in my in my opinion, my opinion. I don't do the whole sex addiction porn addiction thing is there. Is there compulsive sexual behavior? Sure. But I think when you add the word addiction, it just kind of feeds into the whole same thing. When I could watch porn five times a day, get off five times a day and it not negatively impact my life at all. But if Mary washes it five times a day and, you know, watches porn and she's really, really religious and she's really, really into the church, she's probably going to feel a shit ton more shame and think that there's some addiction, quote unquote. Right. So I think using the word addiction when we talk about sex is another way to shame people into the closet. And that's why I mean, my closeted right. It's not just orientation. I think it pushes all aspects of recession. Like I said, is there a compulsive sexual behavior? Sure.

Britt [00:26:48] Let me jump in real quick with a counter argument that depending upon how you define addiction, might create space for people who resonate with that designation. For instance, if you define addiction as any compulsive, mood altering behavior that renders your life unmanageable, and you take somebody who is maybe masturbating eight hours a day, getting fired from their job, losing their house, losing their relationship, all of a sudden that compulsive behavior has consumed their life. Then, you know, maybe there's something to that. So I just want to create space for people who resonate with that designation because there is a whole industry is not the right word. There's a whole community out there dedicated to working the 12 steps in the framework of sex addiction and codependency, the sex addiction. So I just don't want to alienate them. I think what I suspect the three of us would all agree is be pragmatic. Do whatever works.

Nina [00:27:52] Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I was saying it. It's just my personal opinion. I feel the word if we're just looking at verbiage, right? So we have this like neuro linguistic thing going on the word addiction for any anything. I think. Can feel so heavy. And it's more or less going take the words away, right, and just go, if this is causing a problem, you deserve to get help to manage it. Whether it's porn, sex, alcohol, drugs, gambling, all of that. So for me, it's more of a word thing, right? Do I think and do I know of people who it has ruined relationships? Absolutely. Yeah. I think for me, it's as. I use the word simple and air quotes as simple as if we could just change the word, you know, for and for everything you know, even when people talk about like a mental health disorder or mental health disease or, you know, and I'm one of them, I have one of those mental health things, right? I love when people will say, like someone's struggling with their mental health or their, you know, some people can say neurodiverse when it comes to mental health. I think wording is so important, and I just don't want anyone to feel shame about anything about their alcohol use, their drugs, their sex, their porn. I want them say, Hey, you're human. This is the cards you were dealt. You deserve to figure out a way to manage it without any labels or shame. And that's like, That's my ultimate thing. And yes, there is. And just like with alcoholism, right? I mean, there are people that swear by AA and that saved them 100 percent. And there are people that are like God now that wouldn't work for me. I just stopped, you know, or I did. I worked out or whatever, whatever their thing is, right? So it's it's more or less that. It's almost like I want people to know that we're all in the same space, right? We're just navigating ship differently. You know, that's that's what I mean. You're right, Brit. I'm glad you brought that up. I definitely don't want people to feel like if they've been, you know? Diagnosed with a sex addiction or a porn addiction, and they're working through that and having that label actually help them to pinpoint what's going on and then have a better treatment plan. Rock on. I just wish we could take all the labels away and go, What are you struggling with porn? OK, let's talk about that. It's more it's more like this Pollyanna kind of a vibe, I guess. So like our own that I have a bit of a rose colored glasses thing going on.

Jonathan [00:30:44] I think for me, the labels thing is really interesting because because labels can be used or weaponized rather and and we can become so identified with labels that it becomes difficult for us to escape them sometimes and where sometimes labels can be really empowering as in this is who I am and I can give a name to it. At the times, that's not true. Right? That wasn't the question. Clearly, just making a statement like

Britt [00:31:30] Well, it's like the labels should serve us. We should not serve the labels.

Nina [00:31:41] Yes. Yes. And so when I hear the word addiction, there's a picture in my head of how I would feel personally if that was a label for me and I would feel so heavy and. Like Jonathan was saying, it's like sometimes we are our identity becomes the label, you know, and from personal experience, I was always OCD. That was my that was my thing. I mean, I have OCD, but that's almost like in my head. It was that was who I who I was and I couldn't. I was broken. My brain didn't work right. I had really fucked up thoughts, and I that was who I was. And it wasn't until a psychiatrist actually challenged me on that, and I was in my late 20s, early 30s where he asked me, So what do you think? Like your strengths are? Like, Who are you? And the first thing I said was the fact that I've had this debilitating mental illness and I have been able to, like, lead a fairly successful, healthy life. And he looked at me and he goes, That's it. Like, that's that's your badge of honor. And I was like, my ego is like, you know, I was like, Oh my God, it's my badge of honor. I'm so strong, you know? But he said, Nina, I have to visit patients in the hospital with OCD, and I can't enter their room unless I touch a door five times. And, you know, say a certain word, right? I have OCD. Patients have been hospitalized because they're deathly afraid of getting food poisoning, that they are not eating and they are hospitalized. Forgive me for not being super impressed that you can actually hold down a healthy relationship, hold down a healthy job, get dressed, shower, be one with the world. Like, you got to come up with another badge of honor and I was destroyed, destroyed, and it was the single pivotal moment that changed my life as well. And so when I hear labels. Right. And that does go for orientation as well, or I get there's definitely a projection going on there. So maybe that's also where it comes from. It is like just. You know, and I remember a while ago I used to post on LinkedIn before Sex Coach in girls and when I was really, you know, posting more about mental health, and I said, I wish we would forget about the diagnosis and just focus on the treatment. And what I meant was like, Oh, she has depression or he has anxiety or it's it is like, what are you struggling with? You know, do you? Oh, I get anxious around blah blah blah blah. OK, well, can we just take the label off and just focus? We all struggle with something, right? Like, that's a given. And there was an M.D., a medical doctor that wasn't super thrilled with my post and wrote, That's a horrible idea. So you're saying we should forget about diagnosing somebody with diabetes and just try to treat their symptoms and ignore the fact that they have diabetes? And I politely responded, you know, like, nope, that's that's actually not what I meant. I was actually specifically talking about mental health and know if somebody has cancer. The diagnosis leads to the specific treatment, but there's nowhere near the stigma with medical, with physical issues than there are with mental. So I just I was just saying like, somebody isn't depression, just like somebody isn't. Cancer is something that they have to navigate and get treated and survive through. And I think once we start throwing labels, it can not always it can make this like box that you feel like that's your home now forever. You know, the kid with OCD, you're the kid with, you know what? Alopecia, you're the kid. And that's what I would love to just kind of. Get out of the way.

Jonathan [00:36:12] I totally understand what you're saying. And and also know that what you don't mean is that you want to take it any less seriously. Right? It's like it actually surprises me a little bit that it isn't a little it isn't more isn't taken. The idea of giving people labels isn't taken more seriously and the effect that that kind of have on people, right? I understand my own labels. Regularly caused me issues, right? And because they're the. They are that difficult to avoid and steeped in societal. What's the word I'm looking for? Societal discrimination and prejudice and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And so like when you have when you have a label, whether or not you can control whether whether whether it's yours or not it's going to it's going to provide you with some issues. And and my example of that is obviously being a member of the queer community and the issues that that brings up. But when you start handing out labels as a medical professional psychologically and you're not paying attention to how that impacts someone, and I think you're missing something a little bit, right?

Nina [00:37:50] Maybe, you know, I'm like, you know, I think to, for example, bipolar. Yeah, I have multiple people in my adult life who have confessed, literally have said, I have to confess something. I have bipolar and I was like, cool. It's like, OK, what are you? Are you good? Are you all right? You know, and like, I just I just know how people think when they hear the word bipolar. And so I just always told people I had depression. So literally, people are choosing other labels that are easier to for. Are more palatable in our society. So I'm sure there are people who have been told you're a sex addict and they can't say that out loud. They might be like, Oh, I just want sex all the time, you know, or all a little, you know, I'm a little compulsive when it comes to sex. So I feel like if you are someone who feels that you feel lost and would feel found and grounded and more able to proceed with treatment if there was some sort of a diagnosis, get the fucking diagnosis. Do it right, do it if you want. Because if that diagnosis helps you find resources faster or better, resources do it. If you're finding that a label will isolate you, whether in your own mind or in real life. I can promise you. You don't need it then. It isn't going to change the situation, right? If I said, Oh, I just am an over thinker and I have weird thoughts, right? That isn't going to change, whether I have OCD or not, right? Whether I call it OCD or if I describe the symptoms, they're going to go away.

Britt [00:39:39] That was really beautifully, said Nina. I really love the way you said that. It was really poetic and I think you said it really beautifully. I'm going to go on a socialist rant. So buckle up. I think there's also because at least in the U.S., I don't know what they're doing in the UK, Jonathan can tell us later. It doesn't make sense to me, at least in the US. We can not make one move. We are just saturated in capitalist messaging, marketing and sales. And so I can't help but believe that some people in the Western medical tradition have not been so conditioned to use labels as quick diagnostic tools because they are compensated and incented financially to do so. So while it may not be the overriding factor, I think it's really important to acknowledge that capitalism derives almost everything we do in the in the US society, and that it's much easier to market and sell to people if they are segmented by a variety of labels. It's just much more efficient, and I know that because I work in sales and marketing, so I know that to be true. And so it's just people are complex, people are missing. People are contradictory. And that doesn't jibe well with capitalism. Capitalism wants us to stay in our lane and to be neatly quantified so that we can be separated and conquered so that we can think we're less than so we can think we need to purchase things. And this has played out all sorts of ways indirectly as well. When you think about social media culture. Look at all of the people patently unqualified to make diagnoses on Instagram that are out there popping labels on people like You're a narcissist. You know you're evil. You're wrong, you're right. I mean, people who have no idea what they're talking about slapping on labels because they get a little dopamine hit.

Nina [00:41:39] Mm hmm. Yeah, but like narcissist toxic, those are such buzzwords. Attachment styles. Those words have, you know, have have a purpose. There's a time and a place. But not everybody is toxic. Not every relationship is toxic. Not every nuance within a relationship is a red flag. Not every attachment style can describe the dynamics of your entire relationship. You know, and I and I 100 percent agree with you like, you're definitely more of an intellectual Britt, so I'm not even going to try to like I'm not going to, like, authorize this conversation, and I try to pretend to, like, have the wordsmithing feel that you do and talk about socialism because I don't really know anything about it, but I can say that I know what is it? The Sunshine Act, where you can see what doctors get paid for. You know, the different pharmaceutical companies and. I think it would if people were to really think about. Wow. Like this doctor gets paid x amount for prescribing, you know, Prozac. Right, well, now I'm kind of worried like, are you really paying attention to my symptoms and looking into my medical history and listening to me? Or are you just prescribing Prozac because you got paid from the former rep to do it like it's scary, it's very scary, you know, and then I have being in the mental health space know so much about all the different medicines and the side effects. I mean, I'm not a doctor by any means, but a people will come to me and say, Oh my, even like their childhood, my child has AIDS, so they put them on blah blah blah, and they try this and this and this, but it's not working. And I was like, Have you tried this or I've never heard of that. I'm like, Try, try that one. Because like, it might not be a big up and coming one where all the pharma companies are pushing. But it might work, you know, and I think that it's scary that we have to. Be an advocate for ourselves when we're dealing with our medical conditions, including mental health, because I think we're trained to assume that doctors are doing that on our behalf, the whole Hippocratic Oath thing. But I'm not sure that that's that that's the thing.

Jonathan [00:44:14] I don't understand the US medical system, one that I really don't. And and. Well, well, well, I've never understood is the whole advertising prescription medication on TV. Like, I can't wrap my head around. Here's a list of things that might be wrong with you. You should go to your doctor and get this medication. Well, you know, that doesn't happen in the UK. Nobody in the UK knows what any medication does because because unless a doctor prescribes it for us, we don't know it exists. So I can't wrap my head around and obviously it's capsule nature of the country. Pharmaceutical companies want to make money, and some reason the law allows them to advertise huge lists of problems people might have and medications that will solve the problem. I don't. I don't get it either. I just don't understand.

Nina [00:45:15] Well, I think an even more bizarre is that they also have to talk about the side effects on these commercials

Jonathan [00:45:21] really fast and in small print, right?

Nina [00:45:23] Like you, it is like, you know, people are running through the fields that have, you know, the right and then there's the diarrhea and vomiting. Yeah.

Jonathan [00:45:37] Yes, please talk to your doctor. Side effects may include bleeding from the ears as high quality stomach ulcers, and they say it in like this sexual life as they're running through the fields. Eczema free. You know, it's like you could also die and have diarrhea while you're dying. But I'd rather just have eczema. Thanks for the, you know. Yes, I know that that work thing. No. And he played pretty

Nina [00:46:05] I'm sure that the US is the only country where that happens. I'm pretty sure it's the other 200 ish countries have health care, right? So.

Jonathan [00:46:16] Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. Like public funded health care, you know, you don't have to pay when you go to the doctors or get charged for holding your baby after it's been delivered. We know that doesn't happen.

Britt [00:46:31] We don't have health care here. We have disease care. You do.

Jonathan [00:46:35] Yeah. So, OK, so I'm going to totally out myself here. But so most other countries. Socialized medicine is that the government pays for all of our medical stuff.

Nina [00:46:50] So like if I go to the emergency room because my son had a concussion. Yeah.

Jonathan [00:46:57] You won't go bankrupt.

Nina [00:46:58] The government pays everything, I pay nothing?

Jonathan [00:47:02] We pay for it via our taxes. But you will. You'll never see a bill for medical care, ever. I don't think your taxes are any higher. Are taxes are any higher than yours? I think they're probably comparable. We have conservative leadership here. And so they want to make the taxes as low as they can.

Nina [00:47:24] Wow, yeah. No, I had to. That's a true story. My son did have a concussion, I had to get E.R. and it's an automatic two hundred and fifty dollar. They paid for everything. My health insurance, not the, you know, my health insurance that we pay for every month paid for that. There was a lot done when he was in the hospital. So thank God, thank God. All I had to pay was two hundred fifty dollars. But in the midst of my nine year old son getting a brain scan to see if there was a skull fracture or brain bleed, I'm going, they're going to charge you. As we were leaving the hospital for fifty on like I was just traumatized for 10 hours watching my nine year old vomit for eight of those hours and get a cat scan on his brain, not knowing if he was going to have to be held overnight. But yeah, all I'm thinking about now is that I have to drop two hundred and fifty dollars on this.

Britt [00:48:13] You know, most Americans or one car wreck away from bankruptcy. .

Jonathan [00:48:17] It's insane. I can't. I can't imagine the idea of being unwell and having to make the decision about whether or not I go and receive treatment. I can't take care of my partner and I can't wrap my head around.

Nina [00:48:31] What about cancer, though? Like, if somebody has cancer and they have chemo and radiation?

Britt [00:48:34] The UK sounds like some kind of hippie paradise!

Jonathan [00:48:41] Even dental is covered while our prescriptions. So we do have to pay for our prescriptions, but there are about nine pounds. And the trick is, if you get it all at once, you still only pay nine pounds. So even if you walk out with a bag of medication, it's only going to cost you nine pounds. Roughly.

Nina [00:49:01] So is the argument, then that there are that the quality of our docs, I'm making this up because I don't know is could it be like, OK, well then is that why the quality of US doctors is higher than socialized medicine countries? Because the incentive to be a doctor and make a lot of money isn't there? Is that a thing?

Jonathan [00:49:23] I don't know.

Britt [00:49:32] I think that was a no comment. I think that we should change topics. Yes. So clearly, we're passionate. Clearly, we're passionate on this topic. But one thing I did want to bring up. One thing I did want to talk about with the labels, because I am finding this fascinating, is I want to acknowledge the fact that we have inadvertently used all sorts of labels on this show because that's how language works. Unfortunately, it takes meticulous awareness to speak in such a way that preserves everyone's dignity and creates equity and space for everyone. And we just don't have it all the time. At least I certainly don't. And so we've used labels like "women," when what we really meant was cis women and not trans women, for instance. And so I just want to acknowledge that we've used all sorts of labels, and that's just the way reality works and free flowing conversation works. It's not that we mean harm, and it's not that we're excusing that. It's what I'm saying is that we're learning and that language is so complex and there has been so much social change so quickly. Nothing like it in recorded human history, especially with regards to queer rights. So we're constantly...the language is shifting under our feet. And because I know the three of us have so much respect for each other and all communities, we're constantly learning and evolving and trying to grow. And we're going to make mistakes and then we own it. And so today we used ablest language inadvertently. Today, we talked about women with the presumption of of heteronormativity and cisgender presumptively. And that's OK because we, you know, we're learning and growing. And I just want to acknowledge and we understand that, and then kind of pivot to a question based off of that, because in our prep for this interview, you know, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think that you identify as a cis woman, and you identify as predominantly heterosexual, maybe a skosh of curiosity in there that you can expand upon if you choose. I am curious because we're three friends to sort of talk and explore. Peel back more about the friendships between women who identify cis women who identify as straight and cis men who identify as queer, be that gay and by whomever, because that is something that's been long celebrated throughout human history for good reason. And, you know, I think that there's a piece of it that ties into labels. We have been each other's safe spaces. We have felt like we have could be more fully expressed in each other's company, which is beautiful. But I can't help but wonder if there's that. There's a dirty kind of underbelly there that often doesn't get discussed. And that's kind of like the reason behind our show is to to excavate those topics that often go undiscussed to to have more connection and togetherness. And I would love to hear your thoughts if you've had friendships with queer, cis male friends over your over your life, what they've been like for you personally, how you found them and have they ever have you ever had moments where silently, quietly in the private of your own home you thought, you know what feels a little misogynist feels like I'm not necessarily being seen as a woman when I'm hanging out with these friends? Have you noticed any trends there?

Nina [00:53:19] So this might throw everyone for a loop, because I think I'm backwards in a lot of ways. One, you had mentioned my orientation. Yes, I identify as a heterosexual woman, I've never been with women. I'm married to a man. I gave birth to what I'm assuming will grow up to be a man. Whoever he identifies is fine with me right now. Pretty sure it's Mel, but. I think I have a lot of internalized misogyny that I didn't really know I ever had. Until later in life. I would see things growing up like I like guys better than girls. I always assumed a lot of my female friendships were very fake, whereas I was way more comfortable with my male friends. I did not trust. Women, when I say women, I'm glad you brought that up before, Brett, I mean, cis women. I do not trust them. I didn't really feel totally secure in female friendships as I got older until college. I love my childhood girlfriends I loved. We were like, not tainted yet, you know? But middle school and high school was was brutal. I faked my way through through that college. I had incredible roommates that are all cis female, and I was 100 percent myself and I trusted them and never worried about anything. And that was really the first time in my life. Aside from child childhood, where I was like, maybe girls aren't so bad, you know, I. Again, later in life, being in this space have challenged a shit ton of my own beliefs, and a big shift was actually on a podcast episode with Jonathan that I had on my podcast where I find myself like if I think of female porn stars, for example, and when I had Jackie St James, who's a feminist porn director, writer producer, she's amazing. I had around my podcast and I admitted this to her too, and she totally could see that is when I think of female strippers or, you know, porn stars that are, you know, cis women, I have my own judgments based on what society told us about women in general. Right. We're not supposed to be sexual. So if you are, you have daddy issues, right? But yet if I see male strippers, I'm like, Oh my God, they're so hot. It's so hot, you know? Or male porn stars. I'm like, I mean, they're guys. It's like the dream job for them. There's always excuses. To smooth over situations for men. And it was always not the same for women in my mind.

Britt [00:56:33] You know, I think. Let me interrupt just a second because I'm you're you're speaking so beautifully and I feel like maybe you're being a little hard on yourself. And that's one of the things that I believe in. You can tell me if I'm just totally full of beans as that. In a world steeped in misogyny and male supremacy and chauvinism and sexism, we all make misogynist choices from time to time. I suspect even cis women and it's like, how could we not? And so it sounds like then you had this beautiful awakening and flowering where you started to question and even resist that message. And then maybe you can tell me if this is resonating or not, but then maybe that was part of your, you know, journey into adulthood?

Nina [00:57:20] For sure. It also stemmed as far as how I showed up sexually in relationships. So I encouraged essentially the orgasm gap. Unknowingly, my orgasm was never a part of the equation and had nothing to do with the guys I was with. They were amazing. I was a serial monogamist my whole life. I had wonderful boyfriends, even at a young age. I have nothing to this day bad. I think I was very lucky. They always wanted to please. I mean, we were young. We don't really know what's going on, but I never felt that they were saying, Your pleasure doesn't matter in my head. A woman should be pleasing a man. These these are silent reels going on in my. These are reels in my head. Not like what I was rationally thinking. It was just I played out these messages in my life that I didn't even realize were there. You know, like to take time to please me is like, not sexy, right? Like, I'm not a desirable woman if I'm focused on my pleasure. That's not what makes a desirable woman desirable woman who is like a porn star in the bedroom with with her partner. That's a desirable woman. And so that's what I worked on doing. And. It really wasn't until I mean, I just we would in all of my relationships, we would have sex and it would be fun. And then I would grab my vibrator, and I'd be like either like, you can just go on with your day, like, go ahead. Thanks. Good job, buddy. Or I like just kiss me when I get out. It was really like I was an afterthought because to me, it wasn't sexy. I still struggle with that. My husband is amazing. For 18 years, he knows all of this, and I still have to really fight through those messages that I have had in my head for so long in order to. Provide an opportunity for him to experience something that's sexy as fuck, right, like I am not a small comer. Like, I joke, You know what? I'm just like Brett. I know you want to hear about this. You'll sleep better tonight on movie dinner conversation with your husband. You've got to hear this woman come. It's like, I joke and I say, I think that my my gift like my present for for being such a, you know? I call it a boozy comer because I have specific Roddick formula, OK, like that, I need to happen. Right? And so my my reward is I have super strong, amazing, you know, orgasms. But that was not something that I saw as sexy growing up at all, at all. I thought that like, it's not hot for a woman to care about being pleased. It's like a chore. It's like, Oh, she's high maintenance. I would be high maintenance, high maintenance so that that misogyny like, infiltrated all aspects of my life that I never, I never knew. And then I think a huge moment as an adult was actually with Jonathan when he called me out on my podcast. And I'm forever grateful and I talk about this on multiple episodes. By the way, Jonathan Jonathan, we were talking about my how my husband is, is is attractive, I think. And. And so my gay guy friends are very open about how they feel about my husband and they know they can be because I think it's awesome and that my husband is like, super jealous. Oh, it's awesome things, you know? And cause me, that's kind of new for me, you know? And I was like, I wonder, wouldn't you like to watch a guy do something to my husband as I? Wow, that's kind hot. Like, why am I responding to this is really hot? And then the second I switched it and it was like, What about my husband? Do some? I was like for like hard stop. Right? And when I was talking to Jonathan, we were having this conversation and we were on video and I said, You know, a guy going down or like, Please, my husband, that's really hot. But like my husband going down a guy, I'm like, It's like feminine. And my whole face cringed up and I was like, Yeah, it's feminine. And Jonathan, in his sweet British accent, was like, I can't do his accent, but I was like. Feminine, like you look like you're going to like throw up that you just said feminine, like first of all, why does a behavior have a gender? One and two, why are you as a female, as a cis woman like disgusted by the thought? You think that was the case, even if that behavior did have a gender, right? Why are you so repulsed by it? And I was like, Oh my God, oh my God, I hate myself, what's wrong with me? And it was a really ongoing, painful moment for me. I thought, I'm sorry and dammit, John,

Jonathan [01:02:39] I have this ability

Nina [01:02:46] That's your label, that's what your label serves the words. Yeah. And he followed it up with another statement that completely changed the course of my life was, I think your problem is you haven't seen a masculine blowjob. And I was like, What the fuck am I going to find one of those, right? And I was like, porn, right? So Brit, I went to work and I talked to him. Yeah, I did. I never watched gay porn by porn. Never before. And I was like, I mean, I've seen it, but it was never something that I like went to. I was like, I got, I'm like on the hunt for like masculine blowjobs, you know? And quite a bit shifted for me very, very quickly. And here's what I've learned about myself, I am attracted to masculine energy. And my entire life that always showed up, insists male bodies. Until. I stumbled across tick stud lesbians, and this is where I said, you're like, how do you identify? I'm like, I'm like ninety nine point nine percent hetero, except for my Tic Tock lesbians.

Britt [01:04:10] So you have to explain what this phenomenon is for us, right?

Nina [01:04:14] So I think that is great. So growing up in the 80s and 90s, there was like you had butch lesbians that were like the short hair, you know, and that was it. That's all we knew. So and I wasn't attracted to that. So I just assumed that I was only attracted to men. Stud lesbians are the one again. Really big over generalization here, but it's typically they have like the undercut like the shaved undercut. So there's like longer hair. It's like sometimes they're like a combination of like they're totally cool in their femininity, but they also have like. Masculine energy, so I find them esthetically attractive and they have this masculine energy. So it's like they have this sensual ness that is so beautiful about women and the masculine energy that I'm sexually attracted to. And. I then dove into that and I was like, why is I'm literally responding to these women the way I respond to an attractive guy? And that threw me for a loop, right? So where I'm finding is that it's the energy I'm attracted to, not the person or the gender. It's I'm attracted to masculine energy. And although in my personal life, it's mostly come up in straight cis men. That's not the only way it shows up, apparently in the world. And so that was really cool for me. And of course, my husband was like, Really, the one time you decide you might be attracted to women, they're not going to like me either. I was like, You know, I'll go. But. And then same with with man on man action. We're always that society is like, if any time there's men on like systematic gay male action, it's usually portrayed as like very feminine or, you know, they're like twinks in, you know, flamboyant. And so in my mind, I'm like, Well, that's more of the they're tapping more into maybe their feminine energy, and I'm not attracted to feminine energy. But when I see men together. That are regardless, I think, regardless of gender identity or orientation, so whether it's trans men, does it matter if there is masculine energy on masculine energy and like, that's hot, right? So I've watched trans porn where I didn't know it was trans porn yet, and I was like, Oh, they don't have a penis. I was like, But nothing has changed for me. Like, it's super hot to me. It's to men. Masculine energy playing together like that is so hot. So I've learned now at forty one that. What number one genitalia and gender identity are two separate things? I mean, I've known that part for a while, but whether or not it really sunk in more, that's more recently. I look at trans men, I'm absolutely attracted to them. Knowing that they may or may not have a vagina doesn't, doesn't really do much to that decision for me, as maybe it would have been 10 years ago because I was so attached to open to have a vagina. So it's a woman. It's got to be. And I just that's just gone now for me. I because I realize it's not. The gender or the body, it's the masculine energy I'm very attracted to. So that was huge.

Jonathan [01:08:05]  it strikes me that we need better terms, right? Because because feminine, masculine, what like actually none of that matters. And and all of those terms are loaded because we have hundreds of years of. Catholicism, Christianity. British colonialism, and so we get to we get to actively seek better terms to describe it, right, because there's still an element in in the way that we describe it, that puts the feminine as less than has merit. Yeah, and and and that's baked in at this stage. And so it's how do we how do we move past that? How do we how do we move past the systemic misogyny? And find something that is empowering, that allows us to describe things without the the dripping nasty did. Emotion.

Nina [01:09:12] Right. Yeah, because why is flamboyant or emotional or sensual a feminine thing?

Britt [01:09:19] It's culturally constituted. Like, what if you were to explore, OK, so you love masculine energy and maybe you agree with me that that's a culturally constituted word and carries all sorts of connotations. What if you sat down and picked apart is the part all the specific elements that you wrap up in the label of masculine and explored which elements you were attracted to and then refrained from labeling like we did earlier, like you were talking about with mental health?

Nina [01:09:52] Yeah, totally down for that because I was speaking to someone once and I said, What is masculine even mean exactly?

Britt [01:09:58] Yes, it's changed. It's changed over the years. It's culturally constituted. One meant one thing in the 18th century, one thing in the 19th century, and it's something now in the 21st century.

Nina [01:10:09] Yeah, I mean, like, I look at myself as feminine ish, but like, I absolutely have stereo like societally constructed masculine vibes, too. And I I grew up thinking that feminine essentially was bad. And like I said it, it went, you know, we're weaker. We can't do things as well as men. All of the people in the government are men, all but, you know, ish most of the high level CEOs and doctors and their men. So to me, it was OK. So women are really good for soft fragile. You know, purposes and they're there to comfort and don't touch them too hard because they'll break and they're like a damsel in distress. And if I see a woman who's changing a tire on the side of the road, I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I get it, you know? But in my head, I'm still like, She's probably a daddy's girl. Like her dad probably had to teach all. Like, it's always tough, masculine or tough and strong and powerful and leader has been ingrained that that's for a guy that's a masculine thing to do.

Britt [01:11:31] And you tell me who is tougher and stronger than a single mom, right?

Nina [01:11:40] Like, like, I'm not a single mom, right? Like, I'm not a single mom. And the times where either Matt's been away or I'm going, how? How do they do this, you know, or the whole thing where pussy is means you're weak, right? Oh, he's a pussy. She's, you know, that means you're weak. Have you seen what a vagina or take right to me? Testicles are super fragile. So why don't we call like somebody who's weak a testicle or like a ball sack? But pussy is weak because it's attached to femininity and it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And so I didn't realize that I was a victim of that or on the receiving end of that until an adult, when I looked back on my relationships, on how I acted in my careers that I had, how I responded to female bosses versus male bosses. A male that was a cis male that was strong. And. You know, Kurt, with his is was was a good he's a good leader. He just means business. He's a good leader. If I had a female boss that was courteous, she's kind of a bitch, right? That's that's like women aren't allowed. To. Move up. It's very it's very threatening. Right? Like if you see women with on social media that are posing like thirst traps, it's typically cis men who demolish those pictures in the comments. Tear them apart. It is so rare for a cis man, whether he's got a beer belly or if he's on the beach like wave and he's got a beer belly in it. We're not just women. We all go there in terror. Put a shirt on fat ass. We. But since women. Annihilated on social media because God forbid, there's a confident woman, we're in trouble, we have to knock her back down. And I think

Jonathan [01:14:16] I think even basis queer men, actually, I think there's there's a there's a huge element of misogyny built into the queer male community, which is horrible and uncomfortable. And you see it in, you know, the whole masc thing. And it's it's rampant. And I'm sure that that includes queer men's female friends, right? I wouldn't want most. No, no, maybe not most. There are lots of equipment out there, but I'm sure there are things that they say after their shot of their female friends that are not nice. Exactly. Especially especially about female bodies. Yeah.

Jonathan [01:15:07] Wait, so you're saying queer cis men talk shit about cis women's bodies? 

Britt [01:15:16] Yes. We live in a world saturated with misogyny, so we can't help, but we have to actively resist. And that's where I started with the questions because I've witnessed, especially as Jonathan was alluding to, when a female person is not in the room, different language is used. Even inadvertently, they often don't even mean harm. They're not. They're unaware of the harm because we're so culturally conditioned to make all of this OK. We're so culturally conditioned to hold especially white women as the pinnacle of protected society so that we can ensure we know who the mother of our children is so that we can ensure the lineage of patrimony as we passed on our wealth from fathers to sons, that they're actually our genetic offspring. I mean, that's where all of this comes from. And then you fast forward several millennia and then we're inadvertently talking about women's bodies and praise in what we think might be praised for ways that the workplace, but are actually denigrating and inadvertently harming their their professional reputation or where we actually are gossiping or are mean to do harm and inadvertently playing into these chauvinistic stereotypes.

Nina [01:16:34] Right? Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know that you had you had originally asked me about my relationship with, you know, six queer men in my life, and I just had Dr. Joe Court on my podcast where we talked about hetero flexibility in men. And we talked about I did talk about my kind of realization about my own internalized misogyny based on that whole thing, starting with guys, finding my husband attractive and thinking that was awesome. And it was turn on the second I flipped it, everything changed. And why did it change? I didn't like that change, so I went to work on it and. What also came out in that conversation was, I think there's a big part of me that is envious of gay men because I mean men in general, to be honest with you, just in general. Honestly, I don't think as a businessman. People who are who appear, you know, who have seen a society as a man because there's so much that I think I've closeted and probably most cis women that you don't have to. And that comes from most, especially sexually speaking. Dr. Joe was saying how 50 percent of gay gay male relationships are open. And I think there's a part of me that wishes or that wonders what my life would have been like to not worry about pregnancy, not worry about violence and not worry about judgment sexually. I was a serial monogamist and I and I'm not sure to this day. I'm not sure if it was because I wanted to be, or because that was the safest thing for me to do. Like I, I could be a sexual as I wanted in my relationships and I was, but nobody knew because I was under the radar because I wasn't single and doing it, so I was OK. And I see things on social media where these reels were like, these two guys are in a relationship and they're looking for a third. Just for fun, you know? And it's not I'm not saying that I could do that now. I honestly don't know if I could. I think I don't know. You know, that would be kind of hard for me. But the fact that sometimes I want to be wired like a man. Because. I envy. And again, this is all stereotyping, and I'm aware of that, but. I. Envy how they're viewed in the world, I envy the freedom. I envy the the friendships where it'll get worked up about certain things like I wish I thought like a man and I wish I could get away with things like a guy. And so I also connect more with cis men. I want to again, I want justice men because they're trans men. That to me are there's no and there's no difference. But.

Britt [01:20:06] I would say that the world is oriented to what we call the masculine, and so of course, it's no surprise that you would feel that way. How could you not? You're inundated with messages that you're less than as you experience femininity day in and day out as soon as you wake up. So. So we all probably carry some of that.

Nina [01:20:26] Yeah, yeah, and and, you know, and it was like a highlight moment in my podcast when I was saying this, I said, I really feel like I relate actually to gay cis men are gay men in general more than any other gender orientation. And he said, I have to tell you, Nina, I've only spoken to you twice and I see you. And she's like, You're kind of a gay guy, you know? And it was like the biggest compliment to me. And we were laughing because I don't know if a lot of cis women would be like, Yes, you know, but to me, I was like, He's like, your sexual openness and you're this and you're that. You're kind of like a gay dude. And to me, I ran up like, not Dr. Joseph, this guy. And he's like, Modulations, babe, you know? But I feel like there's a part of me that. Isn't hasn't, and I'm not sure ever will be free. And I see that in gay men when they go to like clubs and there's like gay men just running around half naked, some of them are just having sex and again. Not that I think I could do that. But I'd like to be able to have the option and not be terrified, not be punished for it. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine if my my husband on Instagram were doing real about looking for a third and I know how people would see me because that's how I would see them. As painful as it is to admit that I know how people would look at me. And yet when I see two guys doing it, it's like it is expected the other guys, I mean, of course they can. They can have sex and have no emotional attachment because every guy is like that. That's in my head. That's what we've been taught. And it's not true. I know many guys gay and otherwise that would never be able to have any type of non-monogamous relationship, right? But I am envious that women, I think we get judged on so many things that we can't help. So we just suppress it so we don't get judged, whereas I think men feel things and just do them because they can. And they're not. And it's OK. You know, it was like, you know, it's like, guys keeps a lot of people is like a player. He's a stud. A woman seems was a lot of people, and she's a slut and disgusting and used. The only difference between the two. Is one has a dick. I think it's very frustrating. But then you don't ever know where the the. But the line is like, I don't know what I actually believe. And I'm aligned with and what I've just been trained to believe, like I don't know, I don't know if I if I. Believe that if a you know. I should say this if I truly believe that. Why do I have different perceptions of, you know, cis women in porn and cis men in porn? And I hate that. I hate it, it gets me angry, it's embarrassing. Yeah. And I'm still I always try to challenge it always. I'm not ever going to be OK with being like, it is what it is like. I've never been that way, clearly. So these are things that I challenge constantly, constantly.

Britt [01:24:11] And that's what's so beautiful about you. You're so open hearted to learning and growing and getting real. Let's talk about your podcast because if you thought Nina was getting real on our podcast, you could hear her where she's running the show. It is an amazing podcast. Why don't you tell us more about it?

Nina [01:24:33] Thank you. Yeah, so it's called Real Talk with Nina. It's available on all of your usual platforms. I will say I recently just switched it over to subscription, so it's three dollars and 99 cents a month. It's like, you know, nothing. But yeah, it's like a cup of coffee. The reason why I did it was actually not for money. I have two young children that have access to technology, and I got two appliances to have a YouTube channel. I still have a channel, but everything is private because they're at an age where they can access all this information. And although I am incredibly open with my children, you know they don't have to know about me personally. So there's just a whole lot of personal stuff on there, but I do have a couple free episodes that are up there. I think episode one is still free because I want people to understand what they're getting into before they subscribe. And so, yeah, they are really, really raw and candid and

Britt [01:25:46] It's so funny and amazing, so you have to check it out. It's called a "Real Talk with Nina." You also have a "Dirty Talk 101" guide, I believe, where you because clearly you don't, you know you're the master of dirty talk. You know, as everybody can tell from this episode. So apparently you continue to hear, you know, so tell us about this.

Nina [01:26:11] So yes. So again, another really high ticket item, it's five dollars and 99 cents on Amazon. It's called Talk dirty to me. You can find it much easier if you just go to my website, real talk with Nina dot com and under resources. It's right there, but I go over five different types of dirty talk and from the super super vanilla, you know, four super super like beginners to humiliation and degradation, you know, so I run the gamut and I explain the psychology behind them because sex is all psychology, very little mechanics and a whole ton of psychology. So, you know, it's interesting. I did put a trigger warning on the humiliation and degradation section because it can be triggering like, why would you want to see some of these things to somebody? But I explain why and why it can be a turn on for for some people. So yeah, so that was actually really fun to create. And I even put a bunch of phrases that you could use verbatim like tonight, write it. You can get it on Amazon. It's like a PDF, let. And you know, so yeah, that's wonderful.

Britt [01:27:27] You know, I think one question that our audience might have is, can anybody benefit from these resources? I mean, you've got a wealth of resources on your website and by the way, will include all these links in the show notes. But you know, you've got a blog, you've got all sorts of resources on your website, you've got this e-guide, you've got this podcast. Is it like, is it really geared towards, says, women? Or can anybody learn from what you're presenting or even hire you as a coach?

Nina [01:27:54] Yeah. So I try to be as inclusive as possible, knowing that I am not perfect and still learning and lived over for decades in a very heteronormative world. However, in my dirty talk guide, there's words you can use regardless of your body parts and orientation. It doesn't matter. I even sometimes put insert body parts here. Like I'll say, your blank tastes so good and I'll say insert body part. You're right. So what's that?

Jonathan [01:28:27] No, no, no. That's a good point.

Nina [01:28:34] Yeah. Your nose specifically, actually. So yes, anyone. I am actually, to be honest, to actually speak to more men than I do women, which is also amazing because I feel like as repressed and oppressed as women are sexually. So are men. So are men. And they're not allowed to explore their pleasure. They're not allowed to explore their orientation. If you are not straight and have a penis, that's huge and you can last 17 hours, then you're something's wrong with you. And considering most men don't fall into any of those categories, it kills me that they feel broken and stunted big time sexually. And God forbid, they ask any questions about a woman's body, right? Because they're supposed to know everything like out of the womb, they're supposed to know how to please this woman. And so they don't ask. And when they don't ask this, this woman does not tell and which doesn't tell there is no orgasm and they're faking. And then there's resentment, and it's like, This is this psycho with the whole orgasm gap, right? So anyone, anyone can benefit from my dirty talk guide. Anyone can benefit from the podcast. Like I said, I do not talk about all straight stuff. I don't, because I really don't. I think most people are not 100 percent gay or 100 percent straight, to be honest with you. I think there's situational dynamics for all of us, you know? But the coaching there is again, you can find me on Instagram. But in my bio, you can. If you click on the coaching, there's a discovery request. You can go to my website and and click on coaching. There's like a form you can fill out. I do one on one. You know, if it's a single, I do partners you don't have. Does it matter how many partners you have? It doesn't matter what relationship style I coach mixed orientation. It doesn't nothing. None of that matters. I also know where my wheelhouse ends, right? So I do not take everyone on as a client that asks and it's not because I'm so good that I can't. I only take specific people. It's that I know what I'm good at and I know what I'm not. And I'm more likely to say, I just said last week, you guys are best served by a licensed marriage counselor. I really do focus on this. The sexual aspect of a relationship. So if there's a ton of underlying stuff. You work on that first, because the sex is just a symptom of that anyway. So if that's not there, you're kind of wasting your time with me. But yeah, it's all all online. Mine can reach me any time formulas.

Jonathan [01:31:38] Thank you, Nina, for your work because I think it's so important in this world and I'm for being here with us. It's been an absolute joy.

Nina [01:31:46] Thank you guys so much for being so brave to have me on.

Britt [01:31:53] Our pleasure. This is such a huge topic. We could talk with you all day. You're so fabulous. We just are cheering you on the whole way and and support you. And we encourage all of our listeners to go learn more about you and connect with you and on your socials and check out your website where there's just a wealth of materials. It's just been fabulous to have you. Thank you.

Nina [01:32:12] Thank thank you, guys, and I want you guys on my podcast.

Britt [01:32:17] Deal! You've been listening to not going quietly with co-host Jonathan Beale and Britt East, thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy. Check out our show notes for links, additional information and episodes located on your favorite podcast platforms.