Healthy Masculinity for Teens with Dr. Christopher Reigeluth

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us in courageous conversation because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truths in the name of radical togetherness. I'm your host, Britt East, and my co-host, Jonathan Beale, unfortunately, is still on sabbatical. But I've got great news for you. We have a wonderful featured guest today, and we're going to explore some really juicy topics. Let me read you his bio by way of introduction so you can get to know him. Christopher Reigeluth, Ph.D., is an assistant professor, clinical psychologist and author. He serves on the faculty at Oregon Health and Science University and Practices as a child and adolescent psychologist and teaches. He completed his doctoral training at Clark University and a fellowship at the Yale University Child Study Center. Dr. Reigeluth's research explores the psychological implications of masculine gender socialization for boys. He is passionate about boys and men's well-being and greater gender awareness for all people. Dr. Reigeluth is on the editorial board for Psychology of Men and Masculinities and chairs the APA Division 51 Task Force on Boys in School. He is the author of the Masculinity Workbook for Teens. Discover What Being a Guy Means to You. Dr. Reigeluth spent five years on the faculty at Pacific University School of Graduate Psychology before joining OHSU. He is married, has two children and loves the outdoors. Christopher, thank you so much for joining us today. It's so wonderful to have you on the podcast as a featured guest. How are you?

Chris [00:02:11] Great, thanks, Britt. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Britt [00:02:15] Yeah, this could not be more timely. I mean, you know, I guess it's this topic is always timely, always here. But, you know, with going what's going on, You know, we're recording this in June 2023 and with what's going on in the world, you know, there's some issues with masculinity in US culture and society. So with that being said, why did you write the Masculinity Workbook for Teens? Who's it for? Why did you choose to make it a workbook? What's in it? How should people read it? Just tell us about it.

Chris [00:02:48] Yeah. Well as a as a child and adolescent psychologist. And when I got into Ph.D. training and and we can go down this path at some point if we do, but. I was really drawn to boys development and boys well-being and ended up doing my graduate studies with Michael Addis, who was focused on masculinities and mental health and health seeking. And so clinically, I had that interest, like, you know, boys in mental health, how are they doing? And as part of just getting into the path of of learning about this area, in addition to my own lived experience as a teen. And, you know, at that point, as you know, in my twenties, it became very apparent that while parents are being educated and mentors and adults are being educated a lot on maybe not a lot, but but much more so than, you know, in the past. On how boys are being led astray with gender socialization messages and masculine norms. And that that's creating barriers for lots of them and some really big barriers and problems. The boys aren't being spoken to themselves, right? Or we're talking to their parents, right? We're talking to caregivers. You're talking to mentors about, you know, you know how things aren't going well for boys, but we're not talking to the boys themselves. And so that really was the goal of this book, Like, let's talk to the boys. Let's have them be part of this conversation and gives them a chance to do something about these concerns. That is that at least some adults have.

Britt [00:04:37] Yeah, that's so cool. You know, my husband is as a middle school counselor, and I had him read your book.

Chris [00:04:46] Wow.

Britt [00:04:47] As part of preparing to teach for this episode. And he loved it. And and I adored it as well. And one of the things I so enjoyed about it is the sense of curiosity that you spark from the reader, and which I think is a precursor to empathy, is that you start to question assumptions or to look at your own life journey, even as a teen, what you've experienced so far, and you start to get curious about what other people might be experiencing in a in a kind of a shame free container. You know, I think it's pretty well understood that shame is not a change agent. And like you alluded to, it's so tempting to find these conversations about boys and not with boys with so tempting to over pathologize and say, you know, boys are everything that's wrong with the world. Why would I want to talk to them when clearly, you know, nothing can be further from the truth if you believe we're all in this together. Yeah. Then of course it's imperative that we actually engage with each other and as you know, subject to subject and human relationships and rather than just kind of talk around them in these awkward, you know, hallway conversations, what are we going to do about these boys? How are we going to fix them? But your book actually directly engages boys. And I can't help but wonder, like, how were you geared for this? I mean, you grew up in this society. You know, you're you were a boy once. It's like, where did this come from, this impulse to to to help other guys out there? No.

Chris [00:06:29] I mean, maybe you should have invaded my parents. I'm innocent. But somebody who would've been from that perspective. Yeah. I, you know, like in thinking about my own journey, I mean, and just to kind of go through some quick channels. Right. I can remember, you know, guy code pressures that all guys experience, right? Not all guys buy into them. Right. But all guys at least rate, if you ask people what are the masculinity pressures. Right. Whether you agree with them or not, I I've really like whether I'm in a room of conservatives or liberals or kind of a mix. I've never really had disagreement on like what the messages and teachings are, right? People can identify them. But I think what's what's important to acknowledge is boys don't take them. In all the same, some boys are very resistant to masculine norms and Naomi ways work has captured that. And the movie Close that has come out, which is kind of based on her research on boys and friendships. Right. Lots of boys are kind of more in the middle, right? They do some of that other stuff they don't really do because it's just it feels too aversive to them. And then, you know, a smaller percentage, percentage of boys. But the boys that get the most attention conform in the most extreme, more rigid ways. And certainly when I think about my pathway to kind of get back to your question, you know, going through middle school, I definitely you know, I was in a society where there wasn't any invitations to question. It was a white, you know, middle to upper class suburban area with good school systems. You know, at that point it would have been the eighties and nineties and the queer movement was a lot more muted there. You know, there weren't many people who were out of the closet with regards to kind of, you know, gay, lesbian, transgender, Right. All of those things were just much more quiet and not not as apparent. And so there weren't opportunities to question, there weren't invitations to question. The model was cisgender heterosexual masculinity, right. In its truest forms. And so I wasn't questioning. I was trying to conform and I was fine at sports, but I wasn't good enough at sports to kind of like fully meet those ideals. And I enjoyed singing and gravitated towards the choir, which is considered to be like an un masculine or non masculine thing. And so I kind of do like this interesting, like hybrid of some things about me that fit the mold and like, you know, were more clearly in the masculinity box and other things that didn't. But I so wanted to write, I so wanted to live up to those ideals and see, you know, be like a fully anointed, accepted guy based on, you know, society's mold, which when you get into high school, then really starts to be about sharp proving yourself as a player and heterosexual heterosexual success. And as I got into high school, it just it started to feel less and less comfortable. To me to do this masculinity performance and I think had been trying so hard up to that point to fit in. And I just got like fed up of trying so hard. It was like, this just doesn't feel right for me. And so my last two years of high school, I got I got bitter and wasn't happy, but at least it was kind of like, you know, like that, like stuff like that masculinity stuff and having to, you know, constantly be proving myself to other people just isn't working. And I'm like, sick of kind of doing it. And so I was kind of more frankly, you know, I had friends, but I was also more isolated and then got to college and, you know, found a bigger world, you know, beyond my small white suburban neighborhood with more options and more identities beyond the guy box. And, you know, some things are usually mentioned as as part of my you know, what I really would refer to as enlightenment was getting to college and taking gender, race and the politics of difference. And the first day I walked in, like, I mean, from what I could tell appearance wise, I was the only masculine male identifying student. And it was a teacher taught by Cheshire Calhoun. And it was incredibly eye opening. And I remember getting pissed off because learning about gender, right, this socially constructed thing that changes across history, right? That is not static that society imposes and comes up with was really presented in a way of let's think about this critically. Right. And this does not need to be so imposed. You can actually like decide how you want to be. Right. Sex is more tricky, right? That's a trickier thing. But gender is actually like it comes from society, right? And society has these expectations. But you don't have to follow those, right? You can be in the box, you can be out of the box, you can be a mix of things. And I was pissed. I was like, why am I, you know, with all the privilege I've had, all the good education I've had, why am I 20 or 21 taking this course and realizing this stuff for the first time? Because, you know, white, as somebody had sat me down earlier and kind of invited me to question and invited me to explore for myself, high school would have been a lot less painful. So that I mean, that really I mean, those are the emotional reasons that I wrote the book, right, with some kind of this scholarly journey. But but kind of part of the pain that I went through and really feeling like this is in an education that everyone needs, Right. Kind of, you know, boys need it. With regard to the masculinity stuff that's going to be thrust upon them and imposed. And they need caring, thoughtful adults to help them make sense of that in a way that feels genuine and authentic for them wherever that leads. And that's a really important part of the workbook, right? It's not telling boys, this is how you should be. It really the goal of the workbook is this is the guy code. These are the masculine norms that that researchers have actually established, which is why I put citations in there so boys can see, Oh, this stuff is actually like established by people with degrees and I can follow some of it. I can follow all of it or I can follow none of it. Right. But at least go through the critical process of being invited to question and explore for yourself. So that's why.

Britt [00:13:35] It's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. And one of the things I love about that is how you unintentionally allude to the fact that you're not special, that you have been the beneficiary of all this wonderful education and training and support and love and all that. But you're just a regular person who experienced something in society and it irked you. And that served as the impulse to to to drive some change and to help others. And so if you can do it, we all can do it. Meaning if if Christopher Young Christopher can can think, wow, this sucks. How can I do something different and be experienced? More liberation, more freedom, more happiness than the rest of us can make similar choices to as well. And I guess you kind of alluded to this. I guess what I'm thinking next is, you know, we've we've on this podcast, we've done a number of episodes around masculinity. And one of the things I started to think about is like while we haven't had the chance, we've mainly focused on lived experience, but we haven't had the chance to talk to an expert like you. And so that's one of the reasons I'm so excited to have you on the show. And I started thinking and in my research I started thinking like, okay, you know, what would you do, doctor? I go. If you were called to testify on the Senate panel in 2023 to answer the favorite questions, the favorite question from certain segments of the society, which is what is a man? How would you respond to that?

Chris [00:15:17] Oh, I would say I'm I'm too tired. I have a one year old and a three year old contact me next year and maybe have maybe I can't leave home right now.

Britt [00:15:28] That'd be good. Self-care.

Chris [00:15:32] What is a man? What a great question, Brant. I mean, it's it's certainly something. In some ways I, I think about it in other ways they choose to more just question.

Britt [00:15:49] Yeah, right.

Chris [00:15:50] Just like.

Britt [00:15:51] Let me interrupt.

Chris [00:15:51] In that construct.

Britt [00:15:52] But let me interrupt real quickly, just to frame it a little bit for a little bit further, because I struggle with this and, you know, I get the the gender construct and how gender is culturally constituted and and all of that. But for me, the labels have never resonated. And you talk about this in your book about how many of the virtues that we ascribe to masculinity could be equally ascribed to femininity. And and it's getting my.

Chris [00:16:17] Guys.

Britt [00:16:17] You start to think like, you know, what's it all for? Like, have you ever known anybody stronger or more courageous than a single mom? So it's like, you know, why? What equity, what utility am I getting out of gendering myself? Now society genders me in a specific way and I get all sorts of privilege out of that. But I'm just talking about my relationship with myself. And so I thought a lot about, you know, age, gender, post gender, you know, is do I require a label? What does this mean for me? Where do I fit in? What does it mean to be gay if I don't even necessarily resonate with the word man or masculine? What is what is so part of it's provocative and that these questions are asked as sort of gotcha questions by people from certain political quarters trying to impose rigid gender norms on society. But from my personal journey, it's actually it's like I kind of get hung up on it.

Chris [00:17:12] Yeah, well, you know, I've got your question written down, so I won't like a stray too far from it. But. But I was just thinking about when you were mentioning the different ideals and characteristics and other groups need. Some of this stuff, too. Why is it treated as being exclusive to boys and men and masculinity, bravery, power, dominance, self-reliance. These are all established masculine norms. And I was asked that question when I gave a presentation a number of years ago at a men's eating disorder conference, and I was asked, Why are you focusing so much on the ways that masculinity is problematic for guys? Why aren't you also focusing on all the good stuff? And my response was because I don't see the good stuff as being reserved for guys. Right. I don't see bravery and caregiving and self-reliance as like within the essence of what it means to be a guy. Right. I see society kind of thrusting that forward. But when I look around at trans people and, you know, people on the, you know, gender spectrum and women and girls. Right. Like just as you said. Right. I, I know plenty of people of other genders who also have those important characteristics. And where those characteristics can can lead to problems more for boys and men is when there's so much pressure to have to do that stuff all the time, to do the be strong or do the brave or do the self-reliance stuff all the time that you can't ask for help or that you shut down. The vulnerable, the vulnerable part of yourself that we all have, but that boys and men historically haven't had as much societal permission or encouragement to also show sadness and worry and insecurity and those things that make all of us humans. So that's that's a little bit of an aside, but I think is important to make note of. Yeah, because there is a universality to some of these things and it raises questions why do we treat this as just specific and part as one group? When we look around, open your eyes and it's actually like parties, people of all different backgrounds.

Britt [00:19:33] And, you know, my theory is that it goes back to patriarchy and preserving bloodlines and lineages, inheritance rights. But I'm talking about more in terms of the value. Like, I get why it's done to oppress people, but it's like, what is the value for me as a person? And I just I don't know that there's an answer. I just I just wrestle with it. But it made me think about, you know, my favorite part of your book, frankly, are the hysterical and beautiful and funny and eye opening testimonials. That's not the right word. A quotes from the the primary sources, the big guys, the kids, the boys that you interviewed in your research. They're so real.

Chris [00:20:17] And very often these are boy boys of all backgrounds. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and they have space and ethnicities listed in there originally, but the publisher decided they didn't want those to be included. But yeah, those are boys of all different backgrounds.

Britt [00:20:31] Yeah. And it's it's so great because one of the things that, you know, if you, if you kind of look for what's not said is none of them, none of them that I can remember or questioning, I guess they all have the answer. In other words, like they all know exactly what masculinity is. They've been taught early. And so I guess my question to you is, is when are we first taught to perform gender and how does that transmission work? Well.

Chris [00:21:10] Of course, it depends. But. You know, and it is going to vary. But but, you know, we know that most boys and girls start to understand this gender stuff and that there are groupings in that there are differences that kind of like, you know. Different expectations for boys versus girls and ways of being ways of dressing, ways of playing with toys as young as three, maybe even earlier. You know, my son Finn, you know, comes from a house with a dad who really tried to just keep stereotypical kind of boy toys out of the house. But he was introduced to them in other sources and from kind of nursery school. And what other kids are saying with big brothers and Finn is an interesting kid in that he's into some of the stereotypical boys stuff, but he also puts a dress on because he enjoys doing that sometimes rape, and other times he'll be wearing like Spider-Man stuff. And so it's just kind of like this hodgepodge when he, like, plays with other girls. He loves doing dress up, but he also like, loves like smashing trucks and things. And my guess is for lots of us, if we really were left more to our own devices, we would like more hodgepodge in our interests and in kind of stuff that we like try out and try on and gravitate towards. And so I guess I'm just giving that example because, you know, that's an example of, you know, I mean, at least this point he seems to be mostly identifying as as a boy, but but at other times is more questioning his importance. Right. Which which just from a political standpoint is like a pretty progressive, rebellious city. And there's lots of you know, he's been exposed to lots more gender diversity than I was with the neighborhood I grew up in. And yet, as a three year old, he still is showing that he's seeing these differences. And and it's raising questions for him and confusion for him at times. And so most kids get start to get social learning as soon as they enter the world. Some kids get it earlier when, you know for parents which you know this is this is like, you know, perfectly fine. People need to make their decisions. But, you know, gender reveal parties and really setting up, you know, rooms in like very boy versus girl ways like pink versus blue and the toys and the clothes are all prepped. And my family knows. So they're buying all that stuff. I mean, those kids are getting a big dose of it as soon as they go into that room. Right as a as two or three days old. Great. Some kids, some boys, pretty young start to get the message, like big boys don't cry or big boys shouldn't cry as much. SCHRADER You right. Research has shown that even though boys are actually, like, more vulnerable and and emotionally expressive and get, like, tweaked about stuff more when they're like, kind of right out of the womb and like, really young, they're not as resilient, right? As socialization starts to happen. They're not given as much room for their emotions. Right? They'll kind of get messages to clean that stuff up more quickly in those younger years than girls do. And so it starts really early. Yeah. And, you know, in varying doses, depending on the family and the family's values. But even even families come in from a much more kind of gender egalitarian, non traditional, wanting to keep, you know, the upbringing is as kind of non gendered as possible. And a, you can't keep your kid from society and society still kind of approaches gender through a binary approach and with these traditional norms.

Britt [00:25:17] And that's what.

Chris [00:25:18] Is there more representations than there used to be, Right. Yeah, people from kind of nontraditional.

Britt [00:25:23] And I think that's what's so great about your book is like you're not saying let's do away with gender, you're not saying let's avoid it. It's like trying to keep your kid away from a cell phone or candy or a video game or something. It's not going to happen. So it's much more empowering to to educate each other. I mean, to recognize what's real and to be open, honest and authentic, and then to create space for for people to play, for kids to paint with all sorts of different colors. However, the the the spirit moves them at any given moment. And so they can be dressing up in a in a in a dress one moment and playing with trucks in another moment. And it's all good. And I love that. And so it got me thinking. And you you go you know, you talk at length about this in the book and you alluded to it just now. This is about the guy code. Some people call it man box culture. There's there's various names. But but what is it? How is it transmitted? What why does it exist and what does it cost us?

Chris [00:26:37] Yeah. So let's get into that. And I do still have your question written down of like the value of a man. So I know I avoided that one a bit, but let's get back to that one at some point. Yeah. Well. Poison, Right. Poison men are diverse. Right. And that's important to say, right. Whether you're talking about, you know, boys and men who are white or boys and men of color, boys and men, you know, who have, you know, all different cultural backgrounds, intersectional backgrounds or, you know, sexual orientations. Boys and men are diverse. And we see that when we look around. Right, in terms of how. Right. I mean, you see it more in kind of big cities. But in spite of these gay code pressures that the the boilerplate the template is not, I think. Does not do as good a job as society would like it to be in terms of like what comes out on the other side of the machine. And for me, that. When when people ask me but is in you know, is in a lot of this stuff based on biology or is in a lot of kind of like how guys are based on their genetics and based on testosterone and having penises and this other stuff. My answer is, well, for one, we can't really do anything about the biological and the chemical and the testosterone. I mean, people look into that research and kind of that research is mixed in terms of the role that it plays. But what is a compelling outcome for me is that I look around and I actually like I know plenty of boys and men who are emotionally vulnerable in spite of the painful messages that they got growing up to stuff that and to suck it up and to don't be at this and to don't be that right. Misogynistic, homophobic, don't be those things. Right, boys, get those messages. And in spite of that, plenty of them kind of turn out in ways that go against and that transcend those messages and lots also don't. Right. And that can be very painful for those boys as well. Right. Who who can't really, like, express their full emotional colors. Right. But but there is this diversity. And so to me, that kind of points to. Yeah, sure. Like, you know, the biology stuff like, plays a role, right? There are hormones and chemicals and that does like, you know, kind of create at least the sex type group. Right. Of of males. Right. Because that would be the right term to use. Right. This male sex type that has these organs. But the gender stuff, we can actually. Do something about. And so, you know, to kind of get back to your question of like, how are boys socialized? I mean, it's going to depend. Right. But what we know and you know, and I give presentations, I always show this stuff is right. If you look in the magazines, you'll see most magazines, you'll see pictures of women wearing really revealing clothing and and portrayed in really objectifying ways. That's not hard to find. It's also not hard to find lots of pictures of guys in kind of men being portrayed in these like hyper muscular, like super intense, ruthless, you know, physical beating people up kind of ways. Right. So those images are very prevalent, like how toys are present presented to guys. Right. And even as young as in nursery school, boys are starting to get exposed to guns and video games. You know, isn't it fun to play guns with killing people? And so that or all of that stuff is part of the social fabric, right? The toys that are given to boys. The fact that in books that kids read, there are more male protagonists and there are more kind of boy man characters in roles of power and control. Right. So that leaves a message, right? Whether you're a boy, girl or a kid of another gender. Right. That leaves the message, right? Boys and men are a stronger group, right? I. Played the movie The Little Mermaid for ten the other day because he'd heard about it at school and it's rated G, and we generally let him watch rated G stuff. And I was like, so uncomfortable about like how heteronormative it was and just kind of like this, you know, strapping, you know, Sailor Prince character who, you know, Ariel the mermaid is is trying to get and he has all the power. Right. And, you know, she has to kiss him and so much. The movie is about like her kissing him. And, you know, she's portrayed in very sexual ways. And so those representations aren't as prevalent probably as when you and I were growing up, Brit. Right. I think if we like, if somebody is able to break it down and some people do look at this of like a percentage of like movies coming out in shows, right. That are heteronormative and heterosexual and have these kind of powerful male masculine characters, that percentage has gone down. Right? But that percentage is still very kind of much weighted in these kind of classic, more idealized, you know, cisgender, heteronormative, you know, representations of athletic, strapping men who are in control, where frequently the goal is to kick ass, right. And then have sex. Right. So those representations are everywhere.

Britt [00:32:38] It's funny that you.

Chris [00:32:39] And kids get exposed to it.

Britt [00:32:40] It's funny that you mention that because, you know, I think in that it's not just the heteronormativity of like movies like The Little Mermaid, and that's just one movie. It's the fact that we're saturated in that kind of content is the issue. It's yeah, you know, as as a gay man, I've witnessed many segments of our community kind of worship at the altar of masculinity more than maybe any other segment of our community. So you're even distorting queer identities and queer self-expression when that's the only totally, you know, norm that you see in movies. And so it's like not even just that it's another man and another woman and the whole world is revolving around are they going to kiss or not? But it's also, you know, even if you're having fun, there's a little quarreling watching the movie. You're getting one flavor of manhood presented to you. And so then when you become when you become a gay man, then inadvertently one of the unintended consequences, or maybe it's very intended, is that you worship at that altar of one kind of masculinity that that man box, that guy code and you and that leads to all sorts of negative, self-limiting beliefs around who I should be with. Am I attracted? Is my body okay? It's pretty easy to connect those dots. And it got me thinking while you're talking, why is it so dangerous or expensive for men to be seen as silly, tender or caring?

Chris [00:34:26] Yeah. Well, I think to to be silly, to laugh is actually like that's a vulnerable emotion. Right? That's a vulnerable thing where you're letting down your guard, where you don't have full control in that moment. Right. But somebody else has control of kind of like bringing out this kind of like warm flurry of emotional stuff inside of you. And I think that that, for me is is why those specific emotions, kind of laughter, silliness, kind of goofiness, kind of bigger overtures of warmth do feel dangerous to a lot of boys and men because they are they are vulnerable. It's right. It's not the classic vulnerability we think about with like, I'm depressed or I'm sad or I'm worried or insecure. But you have to give yourself in some ways over to another person in those moments to really, like, wholeheartedly engage in that laughter with them. Right. And also kind of let somebody else impact you in those ways that isn't coming from you or isn't coming from you acting on your environment.

Britt [00:35:48] Yeah, it's funny, you know, as a society and I think it's gotten more and more so, but I don't know, that's just my perception. As a layperson, we've deemed it almost unsafe to allow men close proximity to children, except in very specific scenarios. I mean, just look at the dearth of male preschool and kindergarten teachers. And I was thinking about that when I was talking with my husband. Like I said, as a middle school counselor about your book. And I got to thinking like and I did not ask him this. I needed I'll talk with him about it later. Would you choose that career today? Would you not be petrified that you would be ostracized professionally, that you'd be living with danger, frankly? I mean, of course, there's lots of dynamics involved, but part of it is social, sexual shame. And, you know, it's like meaning any guy involved in human services must either be gay or have some sort of nefarious agenda. So, you know, and following up to my previous question, it made me think like, well, what are the unintended costs and consequences of denying men access to the magic of children and the unique joy and magic that children bring into the world? We sever men from that connection in the public sphere, in the house, with their own children. That's one thing. But I'm not out in the public sphere. It seems like something is lost.

Chris [00:37:24] Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree. And we can look at it in, in job roles in addition to the very you know, for many of us, you know, who have kids. Right. Our most important job is being a parent. Right. And that also involves kind of kids and kind of really being able to, like, connect with with kids more meaningfully, which requires vulnerability. In the documentary, The Mask you Live in, which you know, anyone should watch if you haven't, it was put out by Jennifer Siebel Newsom. And it really takes you know, it's just it's a critical exploration of masculinities and stuff in this society through the voices of boys and men of all different backgrounds. But there's a segment when I forget the name of the researcher, But but essentially, they are kind of talking about work that they've done, looking at dads and their kids and they'll, you know, highlight ways that when dads are with like their babies, there's a softness and there's a gentleness. And it's almost like they are connecting with something that they had been forced to kind of push away and cut off, but are realizing in those moments with their young kids that it's so precious, both for me and for my young baby to be able to kind of like nurture and bring that back. Right. And let my guard down in these moments and kiss my kid and laugh and be silly and show nurturance and love and affection in ways that, you know, I haven't been as accustomed to in years because of how I was raised, raised. And then. Nairobi was where it kind of is a building on that. And I want to get to research, but has also kind of like highlighted the binds that a lot of dads will be in. Like, you know, I can still kind of connect to some of the pains of kind of my growing up experience in times when I got shut down or police straight had my masculinity policed because I wasn't doing the right thing and it was painful. But it also is required for survival in this society. And I don't know what to do right. Do I keep nurturing the emotional stuff in my young boy who's now getting older, or do I try to like, help train him for the harsh realities of masculinity and what's expected in the world?

Britt [00:39:56] Now that sounds really heartrending. My goodness, I do not have children. I marriage was literally beyond my wildest dreams, much less fatherhood given the place in the time I grew up. And, you know, you alluded to this in a you know, it seems like fatherhood can be a gateway, a port key to experiencing the tenderness and silliness and vulnerability in a way that in certain situations is socially prized and accepted quickly punished in other scenarios. But it can be a way, maybe for men one of many ways, probably mentorship. I was thinking Big brothers, Big sisters. There's lots of ways to experience kind of parenthood writ large, but can be a way to remember semantically in their body what it's like to laugh with abandon, like in that silly, childlike way to maybe if they're having having a parenting experience, some of the quotes around it, meaning, you know, casting a broader net with like a young person who likes to have tea parties and dance around and dresses may be the maybe it's a way, a socially acceptable way for men to play in that space and then reclaim and remember who they are someday. Yeah, energetically, imaginatively. And and it seems like it can be a really beautiful, transformative thing. And that got me thinking about you because you talk so beautifully about the way your parenting and your past is. How has parenting your kids changed you as a man, as a masculine person, and how has it and what kind of alternative expressions of masculinity have you and have you now allowed yourself to explore and play with?

Chris [00:41:57] Yeah, yeah. And I'll, I'll answer that. And first, I mean, to go off on a tangent is it's just reminded me of something I wanted to say earlier, which was parents, caregivers, mentors, you know, uncles and older relatives. Right. Are so important as part of this equation, right? I mean, parents are to. Right. Any older person in a kid's life is so important and right. We can explore all of that gender socialization stuff and we can look at the examples in they're pretty clear and a parent of how these messages are conveyed and, you know, parents and caregivers and mentors right then also have an opportunity to like be in that young person's life and to, you know, invite them to explore things more on their own, which I think is so important. And when you were getting into the socialization stuff, something that I wanted to just say really just like a question to put out there for all of us is like. And if I talk to parents individually or caregivers, they're kind of just adults about this. Like usually there's consensus, although I do him for once. Right. Like, why are video games so violent? Why are so many of our movies like so violent? Why do we have toy guns? Right. Like, why do we have toy guns? Right. As a society, they should be like army, like military police. Give them guns. Like hunting, right? I mean, I know that's like an amendment, right? So, like, sure, like, lock up your guns and go hunting. But why do we give toy guns? And why are video games like so graphic with regard to sexual objectification of women and kind of women in compromised positions in portraying these men, whether it's Grand Theft Auto or other stuff? Right. And so many boys are just absorbing rape, that media. Right. Like, why are we okay with that? Why aren't there more outcries, right. When us adults, like, walk down the street right in New York City or wherever else, and just like, see these toxic billboards, Right. That our kids also are taking in. Right. And so I'm not going to answer that, but I just I wanted to put that out there because I think it's an important message for parents and mentors and people who care about boys to just think about and think about, well, if I'm not okay with that, like how can I, like, push back more, like more actively and raise questions of it because it is such a big part of the societal soup. Yeah, yeah. But I can also like push back against it more actively. And so parents are important. And so now to answer your question about how parent's parenting changed me, right. And of course, parents need to talk to their kids about porn and all that stuff, which we can go into because boys are now seeing porn like 90 or 95% of boys see porn by eighth grade because of social media and being given phones that have Internet on them and the parental controls don't really work. So that's something else that maybe we'll get into. But but parenting did change me because as much as I was doing this research and I was thinking more critically about gender and masculinity. I don't feel like I could as fully like, walk the walk of my own. Kind of like being more transcendent and like how I really wanted to be as a person, how I really wanted to be emotionally, how I wanted to be with regard to silliness and letting my guard down until my kids came along. And I feel like that really opened up as I'm feeling emotions coming up, like really opened up the doors, just like them being there, Right? These two little beings who are so authentic and so have their guard down and are just like opening up their arms to the world and to silliness and to laughter and to wanting to snuggle and crying and showing emotions like in such true, genuine ways. Right. I mean, what amazing teachers. Yeah. And so, you know, for me, you know, my kids, Finn and Fern, you know, kind of I think were like brought me back, you know, kind of closer to my original core, right? I'm just kind of like who I am, right? And, and what feels good for me when society kind of doesn't kind of have as much influence. Right. And I think, you know, whether it's me or you or anyone else, like socialization is real. Right. And even as much as I can question it, right, I didn't really start to actively, like, critically question it until, like my free press, my prefrontal cortex was fully developed as a 25 year old brain. So lots of brain development and channels and kind of like, you know, kind of neural like solidification like happened during all of those years. Right. And so as much as you kind of like then start to, like, decide if that's what your decision is, because that's not the pathway for everyone. Right. The important thing is just to question, right. And see what you want. But it can be painful when you recognize that, like, these things haven't been good for me, Right. And I want more liberation and freedom and emotional expressivity and creativity. And like, my brain doesn't bend as easily in those ways anymore, but I feel like my kids have really kind of, like, helped with just like an opening up, you know, freeing process and, you know, alternative expressions for me at least, you know, kind of from how I was raised, a lot of my, you know, expressions come from just what I say, how I communicate. I think just like the presence I set with just kind of what I say and communicate. You know, I think because of like how I was raised and how my brain developed, like, it doesn't feel. It doesn't feel authentic to me to, like, put on a dress where to put on a skirt. Like maybe it would if that had been, like, invited into my childhood more. Although, of course, I like to support everyone wearing dresses and skirts straight as much as possible. But I think what has changed for me is just getting more silly in my dress. Like I just I have lots of lots of articles in my wardrobe and vests and things, although I'm not wearing one today. They just have like some color rate, lots of brightness. And growing up, I wore more traditional like boy and guy stuff. And like, now I have like more things in my wardrobe that would be considered just more flamboyant and colorful and fun and silly. And so that's probably the biggest thing.

Britt [00:49:21] Yeah, it was so beautiful the way, you know, earlier you kind of alluded to it and you came back to it now. The bind that fathers are in, all parents are in where you simultaneously have this access to magic, which from the children that give you this permission slip in certain moments to re-experience or experience for the first time to play, if only by proximity, and enjoy a certain freedom that only children have, especially small children have. Yet you also have to get them ready for the real world. And that bind. Okay. What is it like to live in a masculine, dominant culture? And even though we've created this safe haven for you as young children, you're about to go into public school or preschool or wherever you're going, you're going to get the message of even before. And so, you know, how do we balance that? And it made me think about, you know, it just seems like so much of our culturally conditioned displays of masculinity, at least in today's world, are tied to our particular flavor of capitalism, which is this weird zero sum game that we play, at least in the US, with securing land, winning money, maintaining bloodlines for inheritance. And I was wondering if this might be outside of your expertise. So you don't you don't have to go there if you don't feel like it. But you know, how can we start to decouple gender expression from capitalism in a way that nurtures intimacy and fosters human richness?

Chris [00:51:04] Wow. That's. I mean, let me take that in. So decoupling gender from capitalism. Yeah, right. In a way that's more authentic and more one.

Britt [00:51:15] Of the billboards you might see in Times Square of sexualized women on display as objects. And, you know, it just seems like so much of it, it's all cut from the same cloth.

Chris [00:51:26] Right? Yeah. Profit, power status. Right. And white men are still the ones who hold most of those purse strings. And even though. Right, not quite as much as they used to, but they still hold hold.

Britt [00:51:40] Most for.

Chris [00:51:41] Sure.

Britt [00:51:41] Yeah.

Chris [00:51:43] I mean, for me, the biggest thing is, you know, all sorts of examples of. You know, pushing back against, you know, the patriarchy and against those patriarchal capitalist systems. And we push back in all sorts of ways, right, from you and I having this conversation today from, you know, educating parents on these issues as much as possible so that they can be more actively involved in really raising their kids. Right. For those who feel this way, raising their kids in ways that feels authentic to them. Right. And recognizing that you can't keep your kid from society in those pressures. Right. But if enough of us are starting to push back and question right, and then we start to bring it to more systemic levels like, hey, schools. Right. And I talk about this and I've done some work in this area, especially with the task force on boys in school, like, hey, schools. Right. Like, you are so influential in our kids lives and social and emotional learning is starting to get on your radar more and more. Right. And for boys in particular. Right. With how they get socialized in their social learning. Emotional restriction is something that happens. And so can you be part of the solution? Right. In this regard, racist is your right. And this isn't going to happen in Florida, but it can happen in some other places, Right? Just as you're like doing such important education of our kids with like the math and and write the book stuff in art. Right. Can we also like kind of more deeply include social emotional learning and gender based education, right? So that the kids aren't the ones having to figure out like. How do we do this? What does it mean to be a guy? You know, kind of, you know, developing all kind of boy groups because, like, that's what they see and like, no girls aloud, like as adults, can we actually, like, help them navigate this gender stuff that they start to absorb and then like reenact and perform in ways that can be problematic and limiting, like can we like, help them out with that more and can schools help them out with that more? Right. And then you can kind of like get up to that level of system of change. And I think from there is more and more people know like change does have a chance to happen and then those billboards can get more critique. There was a in a PowerPoint that I gave recently. It's the clothing designer. I think it's like Dolce and Gabbana. Right. I showed an advertisement that I don't know. I don't I mean, maybe it's a decade old at this point, but there is great and this was definitely in a magazine, but it could have been on a billboard. There is a woman who's like, scantily dressed. She's like very fashionable. Right. But she's like down on her back and her hands are out in her kind of like legs are opened up a little bit. And there's a man who's also, like, dressed in Dolce Gabbana, like, over her. Right. And it kind of feels sexual. Right? She is the one being dominated. But then there are these guys standing around. Oh, right. And so it's not just the two of them. Right. And so, I mean, literally, like as I was looking at in this new way, I was like, you know, it's like this idealized gang rape.

Britt [00:55:20] Exactly.

Chris [00:55:21] Isn't mount. And this is in like a Dolce and Gabbana thing, Right? Which, oh, you know, I can't afford their stuff, I don't think. But I think, you know, they're like a very well-known clothing company and they're like out there and their ads are out there and they're they get absorbed in. So, you know, pushing back against that stuff more. And I think there will be more societal pushback and politicians will care more when just society in general has this issue more on their radar and when more parents really feel like they're given encouragement and permission to like. QUESTION Right. And push back. Right. And kids need to be encouraged to like, have choices and to think more critically and not just have to absorb this gender stuff.

Britt [00:56:05] Yeah, we've we've focused a lot on the younger kids in our conversation today. Let's expand it a little bit based on, you know, what we were just talking about. It seems like in some societies throughout history there have been all sorts of rites of passage designed to symbolize the ascent into manhood, the transfer of boys from their mothers to the community. You know, maybe they perform feats of strength or endurance or heroism. Overcoming their fear is whatever is important to that society. But these rights signify a transition into manhood. And I was wondering I was thinking about our own rites of passage in contemporary US society and thinking about, you know, things like graduating from high school or high school prom or homecoming dance or, you know, And I was thinking, if any of these traditions. Exist in contemporary cultures that you think imbue a sense of healthy masculinity, insecure manhood. And if not, because I'm assuming they don't, not how can we create them? And maybe that was kind of going to your previous point. It's like, how can we again start to decouple capitalism from gender? Lay as elders, parents or not lay a secure foundation for these kids who are coming up and then help them bridge that gap by creating either ceremonies or cultural transmission points or rites of passage so that they feel freer and more liberated to be who they truly are.

Chris [00:57:45] Hmm. Yeah. I think. Yeah. I mean, with regard to these rituals and coming of age type things. I mean, you certainly see change in a city like Portland with regard to just, you know, what kids are being exposed to, what boys you're being exposed to, You know, more students, you know, many more students in the Portland Public Schools who are representing themselves in non-binary. Right. Or kind of more openly like identifying as trans. And then that has an opportunity for, you know, people from, you know, other, you know, non cisgender, straight backgrounds to kind of like, you know, be a part of these coming of age ceremonies and start to. Change those and alter them and alter the representations. And what like just what you see, Right. Just kind of even if it's something that, you know, originated as part of, you know, a patriarchal type thing that, you know, for decades and decades and even centuries, this, you know, reinforced heteronormativity and men at the top and white men at the top and kind of power and privilege in these ways. Right. We now have these kind of alternatives, expressions and representations, right? We don't just kind of look around and see all, you know, teen cisgender boys and teen cisgender girls, you know, dancing together in their traditional outfits. Right. We now have opportunities to kind of like see other expressions. Right. And of course. Right. That's going to happen more or less depending on where you live. And so I do think that's starting to happen. And I do think I think parents are starting to be made just not everywhere, but in plenty of places more uncomfortable by their kids pushing back. Right. I hear parents like saying sometimes, like my kid is like in third and fourth grade and they're saying they're gender non-binary. Like like, what the heck is that? Like, where are they learning about that? Right? And like, this is this has gone too far, right? Well, maybe it's that your kid has actually, like, had a choice and maybe that's a hat they're trying on for right now, and maybe that's a hat that will continue to feel like the right hat or maybe it will shift. But they get to try that hat on more than they used to. And that wasn't part of your upbringing. But that's the direction that. Right. Even though society is still right, far, far away from kind of really having the gender equity and just kind of, you know, representativeness that we need as it is moving in that direction. Right. Like things are shifting and fluctuating and more parents are having to feel uncomfortable. Yeah, right. Because it's not the same for their kids. Society is not the same anymore. Right. And kids are pushing those binary boundaries more than they used to.

Britt [01:00:58] Absolutely. And that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. As we wrap up, you know, maybe I should have started here, but I was thinking about how cynical some of us queer people can be when a group of guys get together and how, you know, like words like the men's movement and stuff. I just want to, like, roll my eyes so hard because I prejudge about how they're going to be, like, hotbeds of careless queer phobia. And, you know, I just want to. But I.

Chris [01:01:32] Have also like men, like men's rights activists.

Britt [01:01:35] Specifically, and it's like I have to remind myself that while sometimes, of course, that's true. That. What's the alternative for the to punish these men, to shame them, to keep them siloed. And I can't help but wonder that if men were allowed to come undone in each other's arms. It might actually lessen queer phobia in the world. I mean, it's like, what do we want this man to heal regardless of whatever harm they may have done in the past? I mean, people deserve redemption. Either we're all in this together or we're not. And I'm and I'm bringing this up because of the audience of this show tends to be.

Chris [01:02:19] And also just to acknowledge a very small sliver of cis men that fall within those men's rights activists. I'm saying get a lot of attention and they're very toxic. And so it's important to talk.

Britt [01:02:32] About and it's on the forefront of many queer people's minds when we have conversations about masculinity because they are so on the forefront. And so I'm speaking almost more to my audience who is tends to skew queer and can yeah, I can see thinking, you know, I can sometimes as we have these episodes, I can hear their questions and their, their resistance in my head and it's like, Oh, great. Another conversation about nurturing masculinity while and I guess my, my own inner challenge to myself when I have those thoughts because I do, is about all the redemption that I've experienced in my life. And the alternative is pretty bleak. And I guess what I was hoping is that you could speak to about how attending to our maybe mutual woundedness allows us to attend to the woundedness and others and speak to the magic that men bring. We alluded to the magic that children bring we earlier, and I'm coming back to what we bookmarked. We talked about what is a man.

Chris [01:03:40] Yeah.

Britt [01:03:42] If you can talk to some some of the unique gifts that those we gender as men or man or describe as masculine bring to the world and how that can be mutually redemptive and healing for us to create spaces where we can all share and that.

Chris [01:03:57] Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, so just to clarify, first, like, I don't necessarily feel like we've been nurturing masculinity. Yeah. Like, please. More. More so. Been raising questions. You know, the traditional, more mainstream masculinities that can be wounding and problematic in a lot of ways for boys development and well-being. I focus on boys more, to be honest. Well, because I'm a child and adolescent psychologist, but also because I have more hope. I have more hope for boys. Great. Because they still they've got more time to learn this stuff. And their social learning isn't quite as solidified and as as you're alluding to beautifully, like there should be hope and compassion for all people. Right. Even if you don't agree with their politics or their viewpoints or their belief systems. Right. And when we think about people who do the most awful things in society, most of those people had pretty ugly childhoods and didn't have somebody who loved them, didn't have somebody who gave them hugs, didn't have somebody who made them feel like they mattered, which everybody needs. Hmm. And so I don't I don't know how to bring the different groups and factions together in a way that can be healing. But society certainly needs it. And I think a starting point that you're alluding to is right. Can people. You know, for periods of time, put down the political armor and the political card and and kind of connect over things that we can all relate to. Right. We all have the same belief systems. We don't all kind of like have the same solutions to different problems. Right. But we've all felt incredibly small and insecure at times. We've all felt incredibly unsure at ourselves, unsure of ourselves and hurt. We've also had moments where we felt right, hopefully for most of us at least, like they create and hopeful. Right. And they're things I'm passionate about and they're things I'm really excited to do. Right. And so right. Those are human things that transcends the politics and the ideologies. And so it seems like if there's a way to kind of, you know, connect over those human capacities that do get, you know, pushed away by, you know, the guy code man box stuff. Right. But to really kind of recognize that we all have this stuff, regardless of our belief systems, we all suffer in incredibly like immense ways as well as like experience, fulfillment and joy and inspiration. Right. Like, can we try to, like, lead with that? First and foremost, before engaging in these difficult, divisive dialogs that typically just get like shut down and lead to people avoiding one another as beautiful.

Britt [01:07:07] And I just so thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. We're going to put all sorts of goodies in the show notes where you can find more about Christopher's work, read more about him. Certainly a link to purchase his book, which I highly recommend. If you have a young person in your life, if you're a caregiver or if you're working in the industry. I think there's so many different ways to glean lots of amazing information from this workbook. I love. First of all, I love the fact that it's a workbook and it's not just a text book that is participative, it's co collaborative and and all of that. And so we'll put all of that in the show notes. So you don't need to scribble anything down and make sure you're loaded up. But Christopher, I just want to say thank you so much for your time. Today has been such a pleasure. You know, I was I was pinching myself for much of our conversation so I wouldn't start crying, which I know is kind of ironic given our topic, because I just kept thinking of what a wonderful dad you must be. And how cool is that? These two, these two little people have you in their life. And I think that's really neat. So thank you for joining us today.

Chris [01:08:12] Well, thanks so much, Britt, and really appreciate the work that you're doing and the space that you give for these incredibly important conversations and also chances for us to connect together.

Britt [01:08:24] Well, dear listeners, you have made it through another hour of not going quietly, just as the tears are starting to fall. I couldn't pinch myself any more. Thank you so much for joining us on this wild ride of masculinity and deconstructing manhood. We really appreciate it. We couldn't do without you. And then so next time, what did you do? Thank you so much. Bye bye. You've been listening to. I'm Not Going Quietly with co-hosts Jonathan Beal and Britt East.

Jonathan [01:08:54] Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Britt [01:09:02] Check out our show notes for links, additional information, and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.