Straight Forward with Chris Sabol

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beaten biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us just in courageous conversation, because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Everyone. Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truths in the name of radical togetherness. I'm your host, Britt East, and I have a fantabulous featured guest. I cannot wait for you to meet him. So let's dive right in. Chris Sabol is a music educator and the co-founder and current artistic director of Pivotal Productions, a nonprofit theater company that strives to give young adults and Thea young adults theatrical industry experience. I got so excited, I got tongue tied. I can't wait to learn more about that. He is the co-writer of a new musical called Straight Forward, which premiered off-Broadway in New York City at Theater Row last summer. He has musically directed over 60 shows, including Chicago, In the Heights, The last Five Years, Spring Awakening, Company, and Next to Normal. Chris, those are like all of my favorite shows. I can't wait to get into that with you. Chris obtained a Bachelor of Science degree in Arts Administration from Wagner College and a Masters of Music Education from Boston University. He is also currently a doctoral candidate at American University. His debut album is also streaming on Spotify. We're going to give you lots of links to look forward to that. And he is now married to his loving partner, John, after being together for over eight years. Absolutely incredible. Chris Sabol, welcome to the show. How the hell are you today?

Chris [00:01:54] I'm doing well. And how are you? Thank you for having me.

Britt [00:01:57] I'm doing great. Yeah. I'm just so excited to talk with you. It's been a few weeks since I've seen you, and it's I'm really excited to delve into it. And, you know, I have to start off with this marriage. I mean, congratulations. You just. I mean, just got married. So tell me, how was the big day? How's married life treating you so far? What's it like?

Chris [00:02:19] It was it was perfect. I mean, you leading up to it, it's sort of like doing a show, really. It's like, you know, you're like the week before, you're, like, pulling your hair out and you're like, Oh, my God, There's so much to do. Like, why? Why did we do this? And then, you know, like, the day comes and it's just like everything that you want and more, you know, it's just like the absolute perfect day. I had like, one more in, like, freak out diva moment in the car with with John. Like, I think it was the day before, just like there were just a couple of moving pieces that just like, weren't coming together and I and, and I was just like, wow, you know? And then other than that, I was done. After that, I was done. So but he's very, very patient with me, which is very good. Very nice of him. This is actually his computer because mine was not okay. And and it's his work computer. And I, I think I like X out some of his stuff, so I. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was a it was the perfect day, so. And I don't know, it's, it's sort of the same, you know, the life afterwards. I mean, you could probably talk about that too. I mean, it's, it's just I mean, it's, it's a nicer you feel like it's a new chapter, but it's still the same old stuff. Like in a good way, though.

Britt [00:03:47] Are people treating you any differently now that you're married? You're getting nagged less by your parents or your friends?

Chris [00:03:54] Well, now it's just like, well, I think now that we're married, it's like we were just talking about like, oh, what do we do? You know, what are we going to do for the holidays? Like who's taking what holiday, which family is going where? And, you know.

Britt [00:04:05] All that stuff.

Chris [00:04:06] That season has currently begun. Yes. So but other than that, it's good. I mean, we're both so busy all the time. So it's just it's hard. But that's the hardest part, I think, You know, it's just, you know, he works a lot and I work a lot, so.

Britt [00:04:23] Yeah. Yeah. Reading your bio is like, Oh, my gosh, I'm so thank you for making time for us. I don't know how you do it. I'm. I'm not as productive as you, so that's.

Chris [00:04:33] What I'm saying. Oh, that's not true. Like you wrote a book. What are you talking about?

Britt [00:04:38] It was a long time ago.

Chris [00:04:39] Oh, well, you know.

Britt [00:04:44] So one of the I was just thinking about marriage in general. When you were talking, I was like reflecting on my own life. And, you know, I've been married with my husband for 15 years and married for a big chunk of that time, you know, depending on how you define it and the legal stuff, you know, And one of the things about being part of our community is it's like we ditch the rules and templates and live scripts and all that kind of stuff that straight society imposes among them upon themselves. And it's like we get to pick and choose what we want. And so my question is, why did you get married?

Chris [00:05:15] I think that, you know, I think we get that. That's a good question. I think it's about sort of like cementing that belief that you feel that you're going to be with this person, you know, for the rest of your life. You know, And so that's the you know, that that is like how you cement that, right. It's like we are officially joining all of our lives, things, everything together, you know, like as one, you know. And I also think to, you know, being like being gay, you know, I think that there's this new found I don't want to say rebellion because that's like not why we did it. But but I think it's more important than ever to sort of show that, like, there are gay relationships and those are healthy and quote unquote, normal relationships. And so especially like in this climate that we're in now, not to get like, you know, so political so fast, but, you know, there's there's this you know, this climate, this this buzz, this anti LGBTQ stuff that's that's, you know, rearing its ugly head again across the country. And I just feel like you have to I don't know you have to show up. You have to show up and show out. And I think it sucks that that's sort of a reason to even bring it up to do it. But and that's not why we did it. But I think, you know, being being like a being an educator, like a high school educator, right. I think it's very important for like young queer people questioning people to to see healthy gay relationships. Right. Like they were so excited that we were getting married and like, they wanted to know all about it. You know, they wanted to see pictures and like, you know, I remember being I remember being in high school and sort of questioning who I was and and, you know, my identity as a gay man. And and I think if I had a teacher that was openly gay, I think that would have helped me. I didn't have one. I don't know if you did.

Britt [00:07:28] No, I am older than you. And so that did not that was not a thing where we're in what I grew up. But yeah, you know, I was also thinking about marriage. I'm sorry, the wedding itself, that, you know, when I was growing up and same for my husband, we didn't really have this emotional attachment to the concept of a wedding. It was not it was it was literally beyond our wildest dreams, having a wedding, being married. I mean, surviving. I mean, first of all, surviving because it was at the height of the AIDS epidemic when, you know, he and I were were growing up and stuff. So just that we would live past 20 was like, you know, you know, amazing. And then the fact that you could get married and have the legal rights and protection or have a civil union have a partnership, but then a wedding on top of it, like who would come? What is it? What do you do? What is what happens at a gay wedding? So I'm I'm curious like, you know, why. Okay, so you chose to get married for all those wonderful reasons. Why did you choose to have a wedding and kind of just big picture, What was the like?

Chris [00:08:34] We couldn't like so we when we picked our venue, the venue is like, we can hold 116 and we were like, okay, so invite all, invite 116 and then like 131 2110 maybe we'll show up, I think. And the final number ended up being 152. So like eight people, eight people said no. And I was like, This is kind of like And then so then I Googled it because when we first Googled it, it was like 20% of people that you invite your wedding are going to say no. Yeah, but I regretted to see that at the bottom of that same article. That's a this does not apply to gay weddings versus the.

Britt [00:09:17] Hundred percent response rate.

Chris [00:09:19] Yeah. Apparently people think that going to a gay wedding is statistically more fun. So we didn't we didn't know that. But I mean, all jokes aside, I think it's like, you know, you want all of your closest family and friends there to sort of it's like the one time in your entire life that you're going to have like every single person that is important to you in like their you know what I mean? Like at all in the same room, like celebrating you, you know. And so that was sort of as an as someone who is used to like being up in front of people. And yeah, I was like sort of nervous for that. I was like, Oh my God, all these eyes are going to be on us all day. But yeah, I think it was just, it was crazy to me and it was it was like humbling to to see that that many people like, wanted to come.

Britt [00:10:13] Well, the cool byproduct, like you alluded to, is the fact that this is this event. And then, of course, your shared life together over the years will have ripple effects beyond what you can even imagine into the and the larger the, you know, the community beyond what you could even imagine, because they will all go back and share photos and talk about their experience, their attitudes might change. Their awareness and understanding of the attendees, I mean, might change. And so it's going to have such positive, beautiful consequences, both the marriage and the wedding. And I just think that's a really cool.

Chris [00:10:48] Yeah. Thank you. And, and I think too, like, you know, there's this also this sense of like, you know, even when like writing the show which will we'll go get into I'm sure later but there's this this sense of like the generations of people that that that came before you, you know, in this community, you know and like that's not lost on us. You know, it's not lost like the white generations that are older than us that had to endure in the eighties and the nineties and, and, and the rights that that, you know, the people that came before us fought for us and like the collective trauma that the that the community was facing during that time period and like that's you know that's definitely not lost on the newer generations at least not for me.

Britt [00:11:36] Yeah. Yeah. And in some cases still experiencing that, you know, there's an epidemic of loneliness, especially among elderly gay men. Yeah. Even if they have not been cast out of their families or anything traumatic like that, they just, in some cases, never developed the requisite life skills, never had the, you know, reciprocal nurturing relationships that was stolen from them, purposely stolen from them. And and, you know, and not to mention the AIDS epidemic and all that. So it's a it's a beautiful sentiment, kind of like honoring, you know, the entire community through your your shared love. Well, let's why don't you tell us about the musical straight forward. What sort of. Out. How did you get the idea? What was your role, your creative inspiration? What was your role in the creation of it? What's the latest? Give us the update.

Chris [00:12:36] Oh, my God. There's so much. Yeah. So the the story is about a shared friend of ours, Mike O'Malley, and his now husband, Gary. And you know, about ten. My God. Yeah. About ten years ago, Mike wrote an article that went viral about his sexuality and about how he and Garrett that both were identified as otherwise straight men, fell in love with each other over the course of Mike's illness and Garrett taking care of him through that illness. And Billy, my co-writer, we had both read this article, but we didn't really share it with one another. But it was just something that everybody was reading at the time that it came out because it was gone really, really viral. I think mostly on Facebook that was like the thing at the time, and we had just gone to see Fun Home, which is one of my favorite musicals, and we were like at a bar afterwards, just me and Billy, and we were looking for something to write about. And, you know, Billy said, Well, did you read this article? And I was like, Yeah, I did. And he was like, Well, I think it would actually make like a really great musical. And I was like, Yeah, it would. But unfortunately it is about to real people that are in this world tell KALYDECO, you know. So I would say Billy is definitely the more like who gives a fuck person in terms of like the two of us and I'm more of the one that's like, we'll stop like, how are we going to do this? Right? So, Billy, I made it. We made an agreement that night. He said, I'm going to reach out to Mike and I'm going to tell him that we want to write a musical about his life. And if he responds and says it's okay, then you have to do it with me. And I was like, okay, fine, I'll make that up, because he's not he's not going to respond. He's going to think that we're crazy. And of course, knowing Mike now, like, yeah, responded, you know, and so and actually later Mike told us that he was the we were the only people that he responded to. He had like all of these people that were reaching out from all these different news outlets from like NPR to ABC, like all these other different things. But he just felt like his story was being so misconstrued by like a lot of the media outlets out there. So he just decided to not talk about it. So he was like, Well, if these guys are going to come up and interview us over a period of two days, like maybe we have a shot at getting what, what, what really happened out there. And then I think there was also this idea of like these guys are like post-grad, like very young. They don't you know, it's just like a little project. Like, we'll humor them, like sort of an idea as well. All right. So, you know, we just we go up there. We went up to Boston because Mike was like, yes, sure. Like, why don't you come up and chat? And I was like, I can't believe this guy actually said that this was fine. And so we so we went out there and we just like, rolled the tape for, like, I don't know, four or 5 hours. And Mike sort of outlined everything. And we talked to Garrett, too. But, you know, Mike definitely is the one that we'll just he'll talk to you forever if you want, you know, which I love about him. Really? Yeah. Because if he didn't then we wouldn't have this, this, this musical so and so you know that the literally from the tapes of what Mike and Garrett said on those recordings is how we got the musical. So that is so cool.

Britt [00:16:34] I have to I have to interrupt really quickly, though, because you're I mean, this is like not an everyday occurrence. Okay. Like so first of all, think about it from Mike and Jerry's perspective. Like somebody wants to do what with.

Chris [00:16:45] Our what is this.

Britt [00:16:47] Real? How can this be? Who are these guys? Like, what is the. So it's like, you know, you want to write a musical about my little my little old life for this one event. And so it's so crazy. And then the idea of like you, like in your collaborator, like cold, calling them essentially.

Chris [00:17:05] Like, you know, let's introduce ourselves. I was 24, 23, 24 years old and had no idea what I was going to do with my life. And, you know, like Mike and Garrett are a little bit older than us, but not not by much. But he was just like, Look. Looking back on that, that's just like sort of crazy that we that we did that. You know.

Britt [00:17:32] It was like when you met. Okay. So it's like, first of all, it's like, okay, we had this email exchange or however you communicated and then you're like, actually go from New York City to Boston. Know not the longest trip in the world, but still kind of a leap of faith. Like, who are we going to meet? All you've done is read an article about you don't know who they are, really. So it's like who? You got.

Chris [00:17:52] You. Yeah, No, I know. Well, we didn't. We. We stayed with one of our friends that we went to college with, cause she, like, lives up in that Boston area, so we would, like, stay with her. And then we would go to meet in garrets and talk to them, and then we would leave. And. And just like, you know, it's such a surreal thing to have to, like, go into these people's houses and be and into their home and be like, tell us everything about your life and we don't know who you are. You know, it's but only Mike and Garrett are that gracious, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Britt [00:18:28] And then and then opening up their lives to strangers so they can make a theatrical production of it that millions and billions and billions of people might one day. See, It's like a huge leap of faith, you know, Really cool. So I'm interested in kind of the creative process and like, what is your role? What was your collaborators role in terms of collecting the information, but then also turning that into a piece of musical theater? I don't think a lot of our audience understands the long winding journey between an idea and then seeing something on the stage.

Chris [00:19:02] Well, it is a journey that I would not recommend anyone saying, No, I'm just kidding. But I, I mean, from the start, this is like we're going on like year ten and and like this. This is not maybe year nine, but like, it's and it's not anywhere near done, you know? And so I think one of the things that I that people often don't see is like you go and you see wicked, you go see any of these shows, strange.

Britt [00:19:37] Loop.

Chris [00:19:37] Or strange loop is a perfect example of strange loop won the Tony. But two years ago for Best Musical, I'm pretty sure I read an interview with the writer about Michael Jackson, who I think is like absolutely brilliant. He took about 20 years to write that, so it was about 20 years from when he started writing it to then putting it up on a Broadway stage. So, you know, we've done workshops, right? But like the first the first process was to write it and like, it was so just even entertaining how to say to start that like was crazy because they told us about their lives and there's all these different characters and all these different players that are involved. And we were like, How big is this cast going to be? Like, Is it going to be right? But then Billy had the idea of being like, What if we just did like a two person thing and it just was them? Yeah. And then we yeah, the, the other characters will be there, but that will see glimpses of them through the two of them. And I think that was like the best decision we made when it came to the.

Britt [00:20:51] Circle.

Chris [00:20:52] Because I don't think it would work with any other people as much as some of the criticism that we've got is that they would like to see the third character of the Who plays, I guess the character Gareth's girlfriend come into the show. But like, we're just not I don't know, we still go back and forth on that. But, you know, we we wrote, I would say, a handful of songs like after we got back from Boston and we that was probably like 2015. We lost touch with Mike and Garret for about, I want to say two, three, four years because you know again you're in your mean Billy we're in our mid-twenties. We're trying to figure out what it is that we're going to do with our lives. Billy went off to England for a while to do a masters and and I was, you know, becoming getting my education degree, my masters. And so, like, we kind of like shelved it for a bit. And then COVID happened and, you know, we had found ourselves with a lot more time on our hands. And so we decided and we made it a goal to finish it. And so we finished it. Yeah. During the pandemic, we would have like virtual meetings and, and stuff. And then but my role was mostly music and lyrics, and Billy's role is mostly book. And sometimes Billy will take my lyrics and research them. And make them make sense within the story. And like I would. So. Oh, yeah, the book is. No. Yeah, the book is the script. So like the written spoken dialog and like, I would contribute to that and Billy would contribute to, to music and lyrics as well. But I would say primarily.

Britt [00:22:46] Well, what is the book mean lyrics? And I don't think a lot of our art.

Chris [00:22:50] And like, you know, we, we reached back out to Mick and said, Hey, do you remember literally, do you remember us? And I was like, Um, yeah. And Billy was the one that sort of dealt with Mike throughout this whole process. I didn't want to speak to Mike or Gary during the writing process, and I told Mike they remember us, but I not like when he listens to this. I'll be like, What? I go, Yeah, I did not want to speak to them because I felt that their story was so universal to what I experienced growing up as a girl, you know, with my own sexuality. And so, yeah, I wanted to make sure that some of my DNA was in the score. And so I felt the more that I talked to Mike and the more that I talked to Garrett, there would be more of them and not enough of me and or anyone else for that matter, or Billy Right. So like, I think for any piece of theater to be, you know, relatable to an audience is that the audience somewhat needs to see some of themselves what in what they're seeing on stage. And so, you know, I made that a point because and now actually it's harder to write. When we do rewrites, it's harder because now we're very good, we're very close, we're very good friends. So now when I'm writing, it's like, yeah, it's a very weird thing that it's like this weird. I don't know what I would call it. Like it's like a tornado that like, just keeps spinning and like all these different factors are involved and like, I'm like writing things and I'm like, well, Mike wouldn't say that, but. But I guess like this Mike would, you know? So it's become like this thing that's bigger than them or me or anyway, you know what I mean? It's very strange, you know? Yeah, exactly. And they've been like they've been so good at. Accepting that because like, no. Because a lot.

Britt [00:24:59] Of people wouldn't. A lot of people would be like, this didn't happen. That's not my life. And now people are going to think they're going to judge me and think they think something about me based on some crap that you wrote in a stupid musical. And now I'm getting flack. And so that's cool that they were right.

Chris [00:25:15] Which is why, you know, any chance that I get with any podcast or I love doing podcasts, by the way, because I think they're just such a great way to, like, chat about stuff. Yeah, but like any chance I get, I will be like, That song is about me. So then that way it takes the pressure off of like a lot of the songs that happened in this musical are really about me. And so, Oh wow. Yeah. So like a lot of these turning point things that happen, like the I don't want to give too much away, but like there's a big thing that happens like towards the end where it kind of gives the audience a little bit of a shock. And it's like, I did that in my life. I did that. He didn't. Garrett The real Garrett didn't do that. So like, I kind of feel bad because like, if we went to the opening night, you know, like Mike and Garrett's like family friends are there and they're like, and their parents. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I was like, you know, I felt bad, but they were like, No, don't worry about it. And like, but I just think that everyone needs to know that, like, there's, there's a little bit of DNA from me and Billy and Mike and Garrett and hopefully other people out there that will see it and say, this happened to me too. And they've been so gracious accepting that because like you said, not some people. If you're writing something based off of somebody and they're like, no, no, no, I don't give you the right to say that or to to say that that happened because it didn't, you know. And so we're very, very lucky to be working with them.

Britt [00:26:50] What a tightrope. You know, I've heard actors. I've never been in this side of the creative arts, anything, But I've heard actors talk about, you know, and inhabiting a role based on an actual person is challenging. And I'd never thought of it before meeting you and hearing about this musical, what it would be like from that standpoint. I just had never considered I'm sure I've seen biographical stuff, even probably with people still living, but I just it never occurred to me the creative process and the tightrope that you're walking and, you know, you know, there's so much public pressure on trying to get extract gossip and get kind of titillating facts through, glean them through innuendo or references or inferences or implications in a song or a piece of dialog. And it's like, now you know what's really cool? You were really smart about as you muddied the water so thoroughly, it's now this big stew. Yeah. And it's like, it's like just sit back and enjoy the event and be moved by the production because it's not Christabel, it's not Mike or Gerard. It's. It's something entirely different. There's been some alchemy that has happened and merged all these different identities into this kind of alternate universe so that you can let go as an audience member being, you know, scandalized or titillated by some piece of gossip.

Chris [00:28:16] And, you know, we've had now six we've had six actors who have played these roles collectively. So, wow, Like in my mind, those people are are part of this stew that you say, right? Because it's like they're all part of it, you know, And like, they all play it differently. They, you know, they sing things differently. And so they're like they embody those characters that are based off of real people. And it's sort of like to see, you know, like even like the opening night party, right, to have to see like Mike and Garrett interacting with Mike and Garrett, you know what I mean? Like, it's it's, you know, and we had like, we had like a Zoom meeting with the two actors that played beforehand, but like, that was the first time that they met in person was like at the opening night thing. And like, you know, I think again, we've all sort of just become this stew, as you say.

Britt [00:29:21] That's a good word for it.

Chris [00:29:22] Yeah, Yeah.

Britt [00:29:24] And you know what I didn't realize before you and I were chatting a few weeks ago was the how extensive some of the rewrites have been. And and again, I don't want you to give anything away or do spoilers, but just, generally speaking, pivotal, pivotal plot points or, you know, character directions, shaping the way audiences likely feel about one character or another and how that impacts the arc of the story and the emotional journey the audience goes on and judging based on their reactions. Can you kind of talk about that creative process?

Chris [00:30:01] Yeah, I mean, looking at what the show was in the 2021 workshop reading that we did at Wagner College to then during the 2022 festival performance that we did with the New York Theater Festival to then the 2023 off-Broadway at Theater Row production. Like so many changes have been made, like I remember from the start, like Mike was the character of Mike was going to be like the narrator of the story. So like, he would come out and be like, All right, not not in this room, you know. But it was like, Hi, I'm Mike. Here's my story, like, kind of a thing. And so he had that sort of thread throughout the whole thing. And then we decided, like, I don't know if that we like that because I don't want Mike to have to be this, like, reliable narrator throughout the whole thing because, you know, and then one of the rewrites that we're making, I think in this new version after seeing 2023 is that. I felt and I think to some extent Billy felt it too, is that the character of Mike was very like, Come on, let's go to Gary. And Gary was like, I don't know. And like, I feel like there needs to be more of a tension between these two characters from the from the get go, because that's reality. And sometimes. Right. And in sometimes as you rewrite and you rewrite, you rewrite, you like lose the sense of like where things should go. And sometimes you don't see it until you actually see it on stage. And I think.

Britt [00:31:42] Yeah.

Chris [00:31:43] It sucks to say that, right? But because you sort of have to put yourself out there, you have to put what you've written out there to hundreds of people because we did ten nine performance of this, nine performances of this, there was a 100 seat theater and we were sold, sold out for, I would say eight of them. Right. So so you had like collectively almost a thousand people see this. And so, you know, that's scary. You know, it's scary to put something that you've worked so hard on to go out there into the world for people to to critique and to say whether they loved it or hate it. And and so but you have to do that because you can't make it better unless you see because to me, like theater is this this living and breathing thing. And the audience is just as important as what's happening on stage. So if you don't have the reactions of the audience, you don't know if a joke is going to land. You don't know if a song is going to land. You don't know if people are going to be crying when you want them to be. So you have to you have to like literally look at the audience, right? And Billy, I don't know if he did this on purpose, but like my piano, like I was on stage, like with the band, and I literally was looking straight out into the audience, which was the most terrifying process. Billy can. He was the director, so he was like, he, like, fucked off in the back and was just like, Oh, you know, sometimes I would see him like, he's going to listen to this later, but like, I would see him go from the back of the theater into the dressing room. He would leave the theater. And I was like, You know what? And and so because it is it's a lot it's really a lot to take in because all of these people are collectively watching this thing that you did. Right. And it's a very overwhelming to experience how other people are going to experience. So me sitting there at my keyboard, I can see the audience, I can see if you're enjoying it, I can see if you're hating it like it was. It was a lot, you know. So my one request.

Britt [00:33:53] I think people don't understand how much performers can see from the set. So I used to be, I don't think you know this about me, but I used to be a professional musician, a classical flutist, and play it. Yeah, playing from I played all over the world and competitions and blah blah, blah. So but playing from memory, performing from memory, where you are looking at the audience is a whole different world. So I'm having a PTSD kind of like reaction now, this the most to you? Like describing this because people don't think and in most venues you see a lot more than the audience realizes. You know, when somebody is bored, you know, when they're texting or picking their nose or gossiping or sleeping or I mean, and you recognize faces. I mean, you can see a lot you.

Chris [00:34:39] Could see people getting up to go to the bathroom, you know? Yeah. It's like, you know, and so it's it's a lot. But you have to what I've learned. Yeah. Especially like in the theater world is like you have to do that because you're never going to make it better unless you put it in front of an audience and say, this worked, that didn't work. And like, you know, we're trying to take all of the positive stuff that we got from the show and then all of the negative stuff that we got from the show and make that work for the next rewrite, you know, and say.

Britt [00:35:19] Yeah, so so it aired. I mean, so you had this latest production in 2023 and then so now you're kind of going back into the woodshed as collaborators and preparing for the next iteration. Yes.

Chris [00:35:30] So we're trying to just like get our ducks in a row of like, you know, forming a creative team to bring it back to life. And, you know, we're hoping to do like a commercial, open ended run off-Broadway. That's that's the goal. So, you know, the first step is to is to rewrite it and then go back into, you know, workshopping phases with with the new rewrites with Michael and Thomas are two actors to. Just, you know, let's see if those rewrites work, because that's another thing is you could write something down on a piece of paper or you could write a song, and it might sound good to you at the time, but then when you get into the space and you hear someone else sing it, you're like, Oh shit, now we have to change that.

Britt [00:36:21] So or even once you inserted into the show, it no longer effects in the arc of the emotional journey. Right. A great stand alone song. But yeah.

Chris [00:36:29] And that we're actually going through right now there's there's a song that one of the ah, the ah actor Greyson who who played it in the 2022 New York theater version and then he was out swinging for the 2023. So he was the understudy for both Mike and Garrett. He just did a cabaret on Sunday, and I played it for him and he sang a few songs from the show. And one of the songs that we have in there is called Change for You, and we decide it. And I love that song. Like it's I think it's one of the best songs I've ever written, but we have to cut it in the next iteration. And it's his favorite to heartbreak. And I was like, It doesn't it doesn't fit anymore, like in the place that it goes. And so there's another song that was written later on called Straight Lines that I think I played that one up at the at the Retreat for you guys. Yeah. And that one sort of says the same thing is change for you, but I think it says it in a better way. So we're cutting change for you and putting straight lines where it was. So it's like it's a very, like grueling process because it's like you don't want to cut these things, but there's only so much that an audience is willing to sit through, you know, for.

Britt [00:37:50] The musically grueling, not only grueling, it's gut wrenching. I mean, it's like you fall in love with the like your children fall in love with this music. You don't want to see it extracted from the show. And then where do you take it? Are you you know, because you have a collaborator. So it's like, are you able to keep that as your own song? Can you rework it, can use pilfered from other projects. It's like, it's really complicated and I think people don't like people don't realize it. They don't see the inner workings and they don't realize how meticulous this stuff is thought out over the course of years or even decades.

Chris [00:38:24] Yeah, absolutely. And like, I wish it was I wish I could say that it was easy to write this musical. It was not. Because in order for me to get the emotional arc of the characters, specifically Garrett, the I needed to go back to a place in my life that I don't really care to ever go back to. And so but in order to invoke those emotions and those feelings for a character, I think the only, like authentic way to do that is to pull from your own experience. So, like, you know, like I had to go back to those early college years where, you know, I wasn't so sure of myself and what I want. And it's painful. And so to write songs like that and kind of go through that painful process of doing that and then saying this song doesn't work anymore, you know, is is heartbreaking. And like a lot of times, too, you know, with Billy, the way that we work is like usually we start a scene with a song, right? So like, I'll send him a song and then he'll say, Okay, I really, really love this. So like, let's expand on the lyrics more. Where does this go in the show? Like, where's that? You know? So that's how well we sort of work. It's like a puzzle. And so sometimes, like I would just send him songs that I would write and they weren't from a place of like heartache or we're trying to send them away, I guess would be good for this. And, and, you know, him being brutally honest would be like, listen, you need to do what you do best. Have a few glasses of whiskey. Go sit at that piano and get me that gut wrenching, you know, stuff that I got from songs like Blinding, you know, And it's like, okay.

Britt [00:40:16] Collaborating is so it's very hard. Talk some about can you talk some about the process, Even when it goes well. It's just because you're passionate, smart people, you have opinions, and if it's working well, you feel free to express those opinions and to be really honest with one another. Can you kind of pull back the curtain a little bit on what your process is like?

Chris [00:40:36] Yes. Billy and I have known each other since college. We met in college. We were both in the same fraternity, and so we were both like arts administration majors, so like arts management, you know, types. And so, you know, we we've had a very long creative partnership because even at at at college, we decided that there wasn't a lot of other theater. Opportunities on campus for students who weren't making it onto the main stage at Wagner. And Wagner's like an amazing place to go for theater. It's like one of the top ones in the country. But we also felt like, okay, well, if you didn't make the main stage show, like what else are you going to do? So, right, So we started this student run, you know, it was called student run musical theater, and it was a group on campus. And, you know, he would direct the shows and I would musically direct the shows. And we did a bunch of shows together like we did Spring Awakening. We did Company, you know, as college students. We did what else did We do next to Normal? We were actually the first we were the first production of Next to Normal in the country. After it left Broadway, like New New York one came to, like, cover us. It was like, very surreal. So, like, once that happened, I think that might have been the the starting point of us being like, wow, you know, like when we work together, like we, we do some really great things. So when we left college, we decided that we were going to start a nonprofit, which is the one that I'm currently the artistic director of Pivotal Productions. And so that was sort of burst out of our own experiences of internships in the city, you know, for various, you know, arts organizations, right? You know, and when you're in college and especially in a program like that, they want you to have quote unquote, real world experience, right? So you can get a job. Right. But like a lot of times what happens is, is that you end up being the person that goes and gets coffee or whatever. And. Right. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. You know, like I mean, I guess there is, but but like, you know, there needs to be in exchange for that, there should be. Right. Something like apprenticeship and apprenticeship. Right. So there should you should be learning something about the industry. Right. And so I don't think either one of us particularly had good experiences in the various places that we were in to interns for. So we decided that we would start pivotal for. It would be a theater. It's a theater company that will create positions of power for students or like young adults that have just graduated. You know, to be able to be a choreographer, a lighting designer, a sound designer, a set designer, stage manager, right. And you would shadow, you know, people that have worked in the field before. But really, you're the one that's given the opportunity to to do that. And so, you know, I think that's important because that's the only way that these sorts of I find that theater is like one of the only art, like one of the only industries that continues to thrive because people like, absolutely love to do it right. Like there's not a lot of money to be made in it unless you're someone like Lin-Manuel Miranda. Right. If that's that's the goal. Right? But like, if, if you're like it's, it's that true passion that drives people in this, in this industry. Right? So to me that passion is not stronger in anyone than people that are like literally just getting out of college that are like hungry and want to, you know, take on the world. And so that energy is amazing to be around. And like, Pivotal Productions ended up being the producing partner of Straight Forward. So we had a lot of young people that had just graduated mostly from Wagner and other places. So it was a very full circle for us to to be on those the, you know, and to have leadership positions. And so but, you know, getting back to Billy, we've really, you know, I think grown as a creative pair because when you're young, I think, you know, you think you know everything and, you know, you get into these big arguments over stupid crap and and we've definitely had our fair share. But, you know, going through all of this together has been very strengthening for our relationship. I will say that because. Yeah, because it has to be because if you if you're, if it's not, then you have no shot in, in being successful. You know, I mean the amount of money that we had to raise to do what we did last summer was probably the most challenging thing that we ever had to do. And so, you know, all of the petty bullshit needs to be put aside, The egos need to be put aside, because otherwise it's just not going to happen, you know? And so arguments that I can look back on that we had like in our early twenties would never happen. Today, you know, like we'll still get into arguments over creative decisions and things like that, but we're fine right after we have them. And I think that's just sort of an agreement that we've sort of come to, is that if this is going to work, we have to work this way.

Britt [00:46:20] I mean, it's not that dissimilar to a marriage. You're talking about a long, durable relationship. And I think what happens is as the years pass, you kind of you're arguing that you're laughing at yourselves as you're arguing. So there's a sense of amusement and bigger picture and humor about it. And yet you're passionate and heated. And then the The Tempest kind of moves on and, you know, the rainstorm moves through and then you're friends again and you remember why you started this to begin with all those years ago. So it's it sounds really cool. I'm hoping you can tell us, you know what? And as an audience member, even though, you know, obviously the show's going to continue to evolve, what can an audience member expect to hear, like the kind of music that they're there's so many different types of musical. Like what kind of music can they expect to hear, even if you don't give away plot points or details in general, like what kind of evening are they going to have? You know.

Chris [00:47:21] I when I was writing the score for this, I was very much into and have always been and will always be into R.E.M. I'm actually wearing my R.E.M. shirt for the for this tonight. And when I went up to the, you know, the retreat, I when I played for you guys, I did R.E.M. song. And I think their music in general is it's obviously like they're in my opinion, they're like one of the like grandfather bands of, like alternative indie music, college rock. Like we wouldn't have that with, you know, without them. And so I that's just like a, a genre of music that I really love has always I have always loved. And I think I love it because of like the emotional arc that it sort of takes just because it's there's no there's no, like, rules about it, right? Like you can do sort of whatever you want within that genre. And I feel like R.E.M. was so good at that. And the other thing that they were good at was the they were not afraid. They had a male singer who was not afraid to show emotion, which is something that revolutionary, especially during that time period of the eighties, late late eighties, early nineties. You had a lot of these like, you know, all these grunge acts that followed like they were they all have a debt of gratitude to R.E.M. because if you go back and listen to their their records, it's like it's it's kind of it's like grunge before grunge, but there's this, like, emotional arc to it, you know? And so and being able to be a frontman, a male frontman and have that sort of emotional connection and vulnerability to the audience and have it on such a mainstream scale, I think is so revolutionary, like you said. And so that was sort of the inspiration that I had for, for this musical was like trying to find a way because it's two men that are singing this entire score. But I also wanted it to have a feel of like this sort of like alternative indie style music, but also have that, you know, sort of emotional thread throughout the whole thing. So I would say, you know, that it's a long winded answer to say like it's like sort of like alternative in the, you know, but with like a little bit of Broadway flair thrown in.

Britt [00:50:01] You've been listening to. Not Going Quietly with co-hosts Jonathan Beal and Britt East.

Jonathan [00:50:06] Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Britt [00:50:14] Check out our show notes for links, additional information, and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.