Trans Masculine Joy with James Barnes

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us in courageous conversation because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truths in the name of radical togetherness. My name is Britt East. I'm your host. My co-host, Jonathan Beale, is on sabbatical still, which is a major bummer, but you're in luck. We have an absolutely fantastic featured guest today, and I can't wait for you to meet him. So let's dive right in. James Barnes, a motivational speaker and transition coach, empowers people to cope with major life transitions in their lives, whether it's a gender transition, becoming a new parent or losing a loved one. He researches and teaches how to heal our relationship with ourselves. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable, to grow our ability to handle stress and rebuild our foundation for our identity and core values. He saw how much our work environment impacts our overall mental health and went directly to the source. Speaking at companies like Lyft, Comcast and many more, showing how bringing empathy and understanding back into the workplace is what we need to shift our work culture to be more inclusive for all employees, not only transgender individuals. He is also a very proud father of two incredible kids married to his best friend Courtney, and loves good books. Right now he is reading "Daring to Lead" by Brené Brown and is a fan of delicious vegan food. James, it's so great to see you. How are you today?

James [00:02:08] I'm doing really, really well. Thank you for that amazing intro. Just had therapy. So my brain is just going through all sorts of things. I'm really excited for this conversation in a great headspace. So yeah. How are you today?

Britt [00:02:23] I'm doing great. I'm excited because since you just had therapy, you're probably really open and we can dive right in and yeah, get straight to it. Yes, Yes. You know, one of the things as we read in your bio is that you do some corporate speaking events. And I have a background in the corporate world, not as a speaker, but just as a worker. And, you know, in your speaking events, you know, you're helping raise awareness, stoke curiosity, entice empathy in the corporate world. And yet, at least in my experience, a lot of these companies that apparently believe in diversity and believe that diversity is an ongoing competitive advantage still retain a straight white, cis male leadership team. So I was just wondering from your side of it as a corporate speaker, which is a kind of a unique lens, what do you think it's going to take for more leaders to be willing to share their corporate power?

James [00:03:23] Mm. I feel like I'll probably be saying this a lot, but that's a really good question. The first thing I see is what am I in my way to do my own horn? A little bit, but it's what I lead with is helping people understand. That under the empathy of other people. Right now, often when you are in a corporate setting, it's hard to, one, have empathy for your coworkers. You're in a very, like, productive mindset. You're always thinking about the numbers and the ROI. You know, like all of it is capitalistic based. And so when we can have leaders look at whether it's resources or your team and you see you start to see the humanity in a person, you start to see the talents they have, the gifts they have, who they are at their core, you're more likely to provide resources for them or to invite them in to learn from them, to ask for their perspective. And I think what needs to happen and what I'm working towards is helping people who are predominantly, you know, cis, straight white guys or predominantly white individuals to see the humanity in other people who may be part of marginalized groups, who might be at the table, but they get their shit seats at the end, right? We want to bring them in and say, we don't just want you at the table. We need your perspective. And that's my goal, is to help leaders understand this isn't about a performative checkbox. You are truly, from a fiscal capitalistic standpoint, missing out on a bunch of money. You are missing out on a huge shift in your retention, in your culture, in your mental health of your employees, because you're not tapping into the brilliant minds all because you're comfortable with one set person. And so really, I think helping them understand from not just the human aspect, but from the way that their brains work, which is capitalistic, you're actually missing out on a tremendous amount. And then also, let's talk about the human aspect, the empathy, the pros that come from leading with that that mentality. But I think that when you talk in somebody's language, it helps them understand like, this isn't just I'm supposed to hire people because we have to hire different people. I want you to understand this could be huge for your business. This could be huge for you as a leader. This is really important for your own mental health to share the load. You know, just because you're CEO doesn't mean you have to do everything. Just because you're the manager doesn't mean you have to do anything. You can actually work with people. Right. Let's talk about that. Right. So I think it's going to be a lot of different angles. But as we start to help them understand the big picture, then they start to make those small, small picture changes.

Britt [00:06:29] Yeah, absolutely. And you're you're speaking it sounds like you're describing some cognitive and intellectual understanding that has to happen. Something has to click for them to understand, like, hey, it's just a smart business model for me to retain great employees or to attract great employees, even if it makes me slightly uncomfortable. Is there any associated emotional catharsis that has to happen with these leaders as well? Or is it purely like an MBA driven intellectual decision?

James [00:07:01] I think it's both. So I think that when we are looking at something, whether it's politics, gender or race. Studies have shown that when you are raised and taught a certain way, if you don't feel safe enough to see the other perspective, your brain will automatically reject it. So first and foremost, we have to, as frustrated as people get, right? Well, they should just understand I come from a no shame strategy. So I'm not going to be looking at these leaders or these you know, when in a pride team brings me in and they say, okay, we want you to teach and we really want you to just hone in allyship, and then they'll start to tell me what they're there meeting. And a lot of it is dripping in shame and then judgment. And I can tell what they're wanting me to do is come in and lecture their their peers and I'll say, You're bringing me in to create allies and advocates. That's not how I do it, right? I don't do it by making them feel bullied into respecting me as a tramp trans person. I do it by just storytelling stories that they happen to probably also experience, but from a trend trans lens, and all of a sudden they start to understand, Oh, I went through my own transition and I was really grateful that my my employer did have resources or I went through my own transition, maybe becoming a parent, losing a loved one, a promotion or a demotion. And my company did not have resources. And I remember how devastating that was. Now I can understand why James wants resources, right? So there's there's this strategic empathy that I'm doing that they aren't even aware that's happening. Right. So it doesn't always have to be this really emotional, cathartic, like it doesn't have to be where they have a breakdown in front of me, but it can be just enough that their brain creates the wave pattern of, Oh, we're not that different. And when we are told we have to bring in diversity or we have to bring in this or we have to support trans people, because if you don't, you're going to get canceled. Nobody is going to be like, Well, that sounds amazing. That's exactly what I want to do. Right? They're going to be like, No, the trans person's the villain or they're the bully or whatever marginalized group. That's they're the bully. Right. And that's not true. Right. You and I understand that these are civil rights we're talking about. Right. But I'm a very big advocate of let's look at the science. And the science shows that we have to create a space where their brains can sit back and go, because what we have to remember is we're not just dealing with a leader in charge, Right. We are dealing with. Statistically, it's straight cis men. So we're not dealing with that person. We're dealing with a little boy who is taught by statistically his dad that he needed to fit into a mold and he needed to be a leader or he needed to be responsible. And he could not show emotion and he could not show empathy. And that little boy grew up to be the CEO. That is who I am trying to talk to, is to help him understand that his father that taught him those things was wrong. And can you imagine the betrayal he would feel when he's hearing, Oh, my gosh, everything I was taught growing up, this empathy, the emotions, the vulnerability, all the things that I was told was vile, was disgusting, was feminine. Right. This trans guy coming in and telling me I need to do all those things, it betrays what my dad told me to do, the one man I respect, right, or the one right that we have to look at this in a way that is so much more complex than just telling a CEO, Hey, you need diversity. So I look at it from a very holistic I am healing a part of their journey and coming in. I'm helping them understand the big picture and I'm dealing with a lot of depth here. And so this isn't going to just be an easy thing. This is going to be let's let's hold your hands through this. Let's help heal some some parts of gender with you. Let's hope heal some part of your your fear of being a racist individual. Right. Let's talk about anti-racism stuff. Let's talk about the privilege with able ism. Right. Let's talk about these uncomfortable things so that we can air it out with no shame versus me telling them that. And then they feel like they're betraying what their dad taught them or their parents taught them. Right. So I really try to understand where they're coming from and meet them there versus trying to just get them to change because that's what they're supposed to do.

Britt [00:11:44] Well, that's absolutely amazing. These companies are so lucky to have you. And I was just sitting here thinking like, oh my gosh, thank God you're part of our community and out there advocating for us. That's so beautiful. You're building these bridges. It made me think. So we're recording this in late May of 2023, in The New York Times op ed just published a piece about masculinity that ties into some of what you were saying. James Wear, one of their straight white male conservative columnists, was partnering with others on the op ed panel to, you know, talk about a healthy version of masculinity. And he was opining on, you know, kind of what's the point of a man in the 21st century. And a lot of what I inferred from his article was that a lot of guys feel under attack. A lot of like you alluded to, a lot of these straight, white, cis guys feel like, oh, crap, this was not the world that I was promised. I was promised my dad's world. Yeah. And unquestioned authority and power and white picket fences and green lawns and whatever the Americana kind of picture is. And now it's like everything's being called into question, at least in some pockets of the country and in popular culture. And so, James, I guess my question to you is, you know, separate from the article is just in general, from your take, what's the point of being a man in the 21st century?

James [00:13:21] That's a total valid, valid taken of our perspective. I'm a very big advocate of let's take a step back and see why a person's feeling that. Right. And I think being trans. There's this. It's this dichotomy of gender. Right. So I'm gender bending. I was born into the wrong body. I identify as a man. I take hormones, I beard, have a deeper voice. And yet at the exact same time and the feminist who says masculinity and femininity don't aren't defined by a gender. Right. So then people will say, like, why did you transition in first place? I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's such a great question. Let's dive into that. And because it's nuanced, being a human is nuanced. And I think that what a lot of cis men are feeling right now is this lack of nuance. It was all or nothing. Right. Either you are a man or you are nothing. And they weren't given the allowance to find the nuances within their personality. Who are you as an artist? Who are you as a lover of books or food or of hiking? Who are you outside of your masculinity? Because your masculinity is beautiful. I love masculinity. I love femininity. And each person has a very different definition of what that means. And I honestly could care less about what that means to you or to somebody else. What I want to know is who are you? When you're afraid? What makes you happy? What makes you silly? What makes you feel like, Oh, my gosh, I got to dance to this song, right? What makes you a human? And men are not allotted those nuances. I know that because I saw my life before I transitioned and I was allowed all sorts of nuances. I was allowed emotions. I was allowed to talk to strangers. I was allowed to say hi to kids. I was allowed to. Be myself in a way that when I transitioned, I realized. Oh, damn. There is a very strict box I'm supposed to fit into as a man. And it is like to the tee. What we stereotypically would paint me in it. You know, do not talk to children. Don't talk to strangers. You know, Don't talk to women. You're flirting automatically. Your. A man, Right. And there is a time and a place for your leadership. There is a time and a place for your emotions. There is a time and a place and it's terrifying. Right. So before I transitioned, I could you know, we traveled a lot and my mom and I and my sisters always would be the family who would help the other family on the plane with the crime kid. Like, that was just always our role. We would just like all we would rally together. We'd get the kids, be happy, and the parents could have a break on the plane. And as I started to transition, I started notice parents being less and less comfortable with me helping. And then it got to the point where unless I showed them a photo of my kids, they would just straight up ignore me. And it was devastating to me. And it was such a visual of how lonely it is to be a man. And so when you are isolated like that and yet you knew what it was like beforehand because a lot of men think, well, yeah, that's just life. And I'm sitting here going, It doesn't have to be. I knew it before. I knew what it felt like to get hugs from people. I knew what it was like to be at a party and not feel like people were threatened by me or that, you know, people were scared if I was the only one in the room with them. Right. Like I know that feeling. And now I know the feeling of feeling in solitude because friendships are ten times harder to build. You know, I always joke it was so much easier to build friendships in 5 minutes at the club in a women's bathroom than it's been to build friendships with guys in five years. And women always get what I mean. They're always like, Oh my gosh, yes, that's like the best that the women's bathroom at a club is like the it's like its own little like culture. And, you know, guys, you walk in, you look down, you don't talk and you get out. That is the epitome of the difference of gender. So when you take that and you look at a guy and you say all the things that you were told to be are negative, now there is no other depth, there is no other nuances that they're allowed to say, Oh, that sucks. But, you know, at least I have fill in the blank for healthy men who have done the work, who do love art or reading or whatever it is that gives them life. Yes, absolutely. They might listen to this podcast and say, Yeah, well, I have depth. Good for you. That's amazing. But there are a lot of men who were literally told your masculinity is your gift to the world, and now they're being told not only is it not a gift, but it is a weapon. And you also, though, on top of being weaponized, are not allowed to cry about that loss. You're not allowed to feel sad about that because when you feel sad, you're called weak. So from my perspective, I have a tremendous amount of empathy for men right now because they have not been given the tools to do the adequate work to figure out what the nuances are in their life. They haven't been able to figure out how to build a community around themselves, to build up their identity, to build up their support system, to cry and grieve the loss of what they were taught. They have not been given the resources, but they have also been given the responsibility. And that is a very heavy burden to carry. That does not invalidate what women have felt in marginalized groups. I'm a big advocate of two things to be true at the same time. So absolutely valid that men are hard, that women and marginalized groups are mad at masculinity, toxic masculinity. Right. That that the stereotypical absolutely valid but what men are feeling. It's hard. It is very, very difficult right now. And I know that I've seen it. So, yeah, I think it's a very complicated topic, but podcasts like this are really important because you're you're creating a space for those nuanced moments for that that learning for that support system. And I think that's vital right now.

Britt [00:19:52] Yeah. Thank you. You know, it's like we're not apologizing or denying the reality of any anybody. It's what's the alternative? I mean, we know shame is not a change agent. You know, we've systematically denied these guys rites of passage, moral education, cultural education outlets, you know, for like you describe for emotional release bonding. Their role has changed so dramatically since the Industrial revolution, you know, and especially now that there's no compulsory military service. So but, you know, if you look at their grandfathers lives and their lives, they're dramatically different. And I have a lot of empathy that why they might be confused. And like you said, they're not allowed to feel anything but anger. That's all that we allow men to feel. So why are we surprised when that's what they express is rage? So, you know, I'm, like I said, a fan of radical togetherness at the top of the show. And and I just think like, yeah, I mean, I get really angry, but it's like the truth is that we are if you believe that we're all in this together, then what's actually going to drive change is kindness, compassion, understanding. And if you look at it from their perspective, it's really easy to see. Is simple math here. It's really easy to see why there's so much pain and suffering. And so I appreciate, you know, your your your wisdom on that. You got me thinking about queer men as well in that we were kind of focusing on straight men. And queer men have been on a slightly different journey. We've done a number of episodes on this podcast where we purposely kind of shine the light of air, their dirty laundry in the name of love and shine the light on some of the fractures in the communities so that we can understand how we might be made more whole culturally together. We've done some episodes on the relationship between gay guys and bisexual guys, gay guys and straight guys. And, you know, I think that all of these groups bring their own flavors of magic to the healing table, and I was wondering what your experience and thoughts are on the magic that some of these straight guys bring, some of the magic that some queer guys, you know, bring the magic that trans guys bring and how we can kind of come together and celebrate that.

James [00:22:42] That's a great perspective. I think that it's really important to celebrate the different magic that each community brings. And in the overlap, you know that the ability to say, how can we use all these gifts together to create something really epic? And, you know, when I think of the cis straight men in my life. A lot of them are incredible problem solvers because that was what they were allowed to do. Right. They my dad is a contractor farmer. All of his childhood and farming was in my family for generations and generations and generations and. A lot of the men in my life have been amazing problem solvers. I could give my dad a problem and he can fix it, whether it's contracting or something else. His brain is brilliant and I just stare at him like, How did you get there? That's what's truly remarkable. And there is that amazing part of I've been seeing a lot on social media. I think a lot of themes go like there's an ebb and flow of themes. And right now I'm seeing a lot of like wives talking about how they don't want their husbands to fix their problems, but just to listen. And it is an ongoing theme, right? It's definitely something that it's a real problem. But that was their job. That's literally what we tell cis straight men to do is, you know, become a leader and solve problems. Right? Do you have a problem providing for your family? Solve it. Right? You have a problem with not fitting in, Fix it. You're not on the sports team, fix it, find a problem, fix it. Right. And so they're doing their job. And then these wives, they're like, stop doing that. We need you to do this emotional thing that they've never been taught to do. And so the comments are often like men being like, What do you want from us? Like, that's what we're good at is solving problems. And you're mad at us, you know? And I always laugh because I'm like, Oh my gosh, I could just have an hour with all of you. Yeah. Because that is is such a struggle, because they're doing their best. While they're not doing great at listening and being emotional, they're doing their best with problem solving. I think when it comes to gay or queer men, there is this magic of being able to, for the most part, heal and embrace that femininity that a lot of straight cis men are not. They don't entertain it at all, right? They do not make space for that. And I think that it is beautiful when I get to watch my gay friends talk and they are more vulnerable or they're more open or they're more willing to build a community. Right. A lot of gay men have this beautiful community around them, and that to me is just spectacular to to watch them lean into their community so much that it's like this family they created. And it is really a gift to watch this community that didn't exist. And then you get like ten gay guys together and it's like this like micro family and it's truly amazing. And I think like, that is just a spectacular thing to watch. And all of these things come with pros and cons right there. There's great aspects to it, and there are hard parts, right, With the gay community and the trans community right now, we're trying to figure out where to transition fit with the gay transwoman fit within the gay community. Right. And that can be a struggle. But I know for myself, what I always say is I feel unbelievably honored to be a trans man, and that's because I have this gift and other trans individuals have this gift of seeing the world through multiple lenses and we get to see the world through that feminine world and this masculine world. And I get to communicate to men in a way that they've almost never been talked to. You know, I'll say I love you to my cis straight guy friends, and they'll say it back to me because they feel comfortable what I might not say to their cis straight guy friends. Right? And some people would be like, Well, don't you want to be viewed as just one of the guys too? And I think I'm not just one of the guys, I'm one of the trans guys and I'm proud of that Right there is there is privilege that comes with being trans in this world. Sure, there's dangers, there's cons. It's not like it's always roses, but there are also amazing benefits of getting to walk into a space and men feel like there's something about him that I feel like I can be vulnerable around, or I can talk about things that I normally wouldn't talk about with my other guy friends, and I see that as an honor, right? So I think that all of us as men have different gifts or, like you said, magic that come from the experiences we have. The important part is making space for those instead of viewing it as a negative thing, thinking just like a family, right? Every family member has different things they often bring. And you know, like for me, I have a family. One of my sisters is unbelievably clean and we always gave her crap growing up. But it was amazing. In L.A., we alleviated so much stress we would have. Right. And one of my other sisters is unbelievably silly. And she would always break the tension and like, there's just things that we have, as is siblings that we do, right? My older sister is is just she will do anything at the drop of a hat for a person. And she's always been that way. So when we all come together, we have this little micro community and it's not competitive, it's not one of us is. Better than the other. And that was a struggle, right? Siblings growing up, it's like, well, whose gift is better than the other? Whose gift? This mom loves the best. Right. Whose gift is is the most popular. And now, as adults, we're able to look and be like, oh, my gosh, I love this. This micro community we the Barnes have. So I think it's looking at it and going instead of being like, oh, since men being like, what gift do they have? And how do we as the rest of society help them look at that and be like, Wow, I'm really proud of that. You know what I mean?

Britt [00:28:56] I think I want to make that the title of the podcast First Man, You know what I try and look like and share because there's a video that was recorded years ago way before Kobe came along, and that I'd love to share with people who question the value of straight guys and or straight guys who are questioning their own capacity to give and receive love from people from different lived experiences. There was a beautiful street guy who took it upon himself. And I'll give you the summary version. The Digest. To go to the gay Pride march with the t shirt on and it said something really simple like free dad hugs. James, you would not believe the grown ass men who came undone with beautiful healing, cathartic tears melting in this guy's arms. Yeah. And so that is the.

James [00:30:05] Magic of that.

Britt [00:30:06] That is some magic. And so that is that is where I guess the differences between our groups are important to acknowledge and honor and understand. And the, you know, fighting the good fight is critical, but it is equally is important to acknowledge the beauty that is intrinsic in all of our identities. And it is all around us when we're ready to look for it.

James [00:30:36] I've some in the privilege that comes with that.

Britt [00:30:40] Exactly. You know, we're so used to thinking about, you know, only straight privilege or only white privilege and stuff, but we're all complex mixtures of privilege and adversity. You know, I've witnessed firsthand what you described about my ability to heal straight men by virtue of my identity and my lived experience and my cultural awareness and knowledge and the gifts that I can give them and vice versa. And it sounds like you witnessed that, too. And I think that is an underinvested segment of our struggle. We get hung up in the outrage porn. We get adrenalized by the anger. A lot of it is appropriate. Frankly, We're not apologizing for anybody, but it's equally as important to heal, you know, And so that's that is what attracted me to you from the beginning. The way you manifest this aura and this energy that you bring to your work immediately stood out to me and was one of the reasons I reached out to you and also has me curious about in your personal life what it has been like, what it has felt like in your body. I mean, even as you have given yourself more permission, you know, an ongoing gift to give yourself more permission to display more of your true colors, more of your own authenticity as you've gotten more self empowered, taken up more space in the world, especially in this highly imperfect culture that we're describing. Hmm.

James [00:32:26] I was born and raised in a. Religious household. So I had my mom and dad were missionaries and pastors, and my parents weren't too much on the whole perfect religion. But we went to Baptist school. Church was every day and shame was inevitably ingrained in that. And. When I came out as trans, I just kept thinking, I want to do this in a way that's the least judged. I want to be accepted as a man. I want to be accepted. As approved. I want to be approved, not accepted. I want. I wanted that stamp of approval and. I was doing all of it. I was I had my steaks and my old fashions and my suits. Very Don Draper. I mean, all of it, right? I just fit it. I just did it all and. What I didn't talk to anybody about was this porn addiction that was like, clinging to me, like, just. Seeping into me. And yet to me it still felt like while I'm doing the manly thing, right. Like, this is just like I'm hypersexual, I'm masculine, I'm working out all the time. I've got my alcohol, my, my whiskey, my steaks, all of it. I had a huge mental breakdown. And for the very first time it felt like I was healing my body, like I. SAT in my sadness and let it be okay. Like I didn't have to heal to make anybody feel better. I just was allowed to feel it. I. Felt my femininity and I didn't apologize for it. I just embraced it. Then I started realizing how much I loved romcoms again and how much I hate horror movies, and that there's parts of me that I was loving because other people love them. It's not that I actually even liked them. And that's truthfully where the brand I have, the trans coach. That's where it came from, is it was burst out of this complete breakdown that could have been felt of shame. Right. I could have looked at it and thought all of that shame I'd been taught to feel. I could have just kept that going. And it was such a breakdown that I thought, I don't want to live like this anymore and I don't want to read like this anymore. And this isn't the kind of man I want to be. And you fast forward, and now I'm. I'm getting paid to literally talk to companies about empathy and understanding, which is a very feminine talk from society's standards. Right. Quote unquote. I am a vegan who is dry. I don't drink anymore. I haven't watched porn in, like five years. Should I wear T-shirts and hats all the time? I don't write like I'm not doing it right. I'm not doing it right. And and I love it and I love it. I love that this is when people say like when they think of a man, my first thing is to think of myself. And when I think of that, I think like, oh, that's that's exactly the kind of man I want to be. This is it. I'm living it. And the parts of me that I look at and I go, I want to wake up early or I want to show up more in my marriage or whatever I look at and I think like I'm an enjoy the process of getting to that. I'm not going to see it as a letdown. I'm not failing myself because I'm not doing that now. I'm just going to enjoy the process of growth to that. And it has felt unbelievably healing. And I just feel like I electric all the time because I get to wake up and I'm unapologetically myself and I'm not I don't do something and I think I'll do this because Fill in the blank will like it, right? I, I have realized like what my core values are about is kindness and helping people. Well, that's easy. I can do that and I don't hurt anybody. Great. Cool. Awesome. You know, my core values are do no harm. Great. Cool. I became a vegan. That was easy, right? Like, those are the things that I looked at. And I go, my core values, are they aligning with who I am? And I think often what we deal with when we're talking about men and they get this like knee jerk reaction of. Fear of marginalized groups or talking about racism or talking about gender or whatever it might be. What I realize oftentimes is they have not they themselves sat down and thought of their own core values, like what is true for you? And truthfully, if you were to sit down all the things that a lot of us are saying you agree with, you really don't want to hurt people. You don't want to be a bully. You don't want to be stuck in that anger that you're only allowed to feel. You just have not been allowed to define for your own self the moral values, the compass that you live within. That is true for your own integrity. You've been doing what you were taught, which is what? From your father, what he was taught, or from the church you were in, or the whatever career that you were indoctrinated with, whatever you just. And it's not just men. I've watched it from all walks of life. People just will do what they're told because that's how society works. And that's why I view being trans as an unbelievable honor, because it helped me look at it and go work like this. Let's put brakes on this. I think I need to reinvent this. Right? This isn't working for me. And I was given the gift of pausing and to reflect on what gender meant to me, what my identity meant to me. But. I didn't do it right the first time. Right. And this is where I preach to trans individuals is what happens is you you go from one box to another because boxes feel comfortable raising that. That box didn't feel right to you. So then you go to the other box, which is what I call trans pros, right? They become misogynistic like I did. Right. I'll just do it. I'll just fit into that box. I'll just fit masculinity and we have to get out of the boxes. And that's where I tell people transitioning is not names, pronouns, hormones, surgery. That is what society tells you. Transitioning is transitioning is way more about inner work, and then all of a sudden the conversation can be interchangeable between becoming a parent or losing a loved one or promotion. And that's where my work came from, is when I started to notice. Oh, shit. When I take away the names, pronouns, hormones and surgeries, this is literally just growth. This is just identity development. This has nothing to do with gender. This is has everything. And yet nothing to do with gender. And that's when I started to notice. Allyship can happen by helping others understand that they are a lot more like trans people and helping trans people realize you are a lot more like cis people than you realize. Like we are all a lot more alike and we can help each other and we can learn from each other and we can be a community. It does not have to be us versus them. So I think there was a very long winded answer for you.

Britt [00:40:06] That was beautiful. It sounds like you're describing a process of alignment or realignment and in many ways a coming home to yourself and, you know, like, you know, maybe not that dissimilar to the queer journey where it's like, oh, I get this clean slate, are now unencumbered, have been cast out of society. So now I'm unencumbered by the social norms and pressures and I get to figure out what I want and what makes me happy and what makes me tick. That is a huge privilege and an inverse sort of way in a roundabout sort of way. And, you know, we can obsess about the pain, and the pain is important and then the harm is important to acknowledge. But there's also great advantage in it that then we flower in a way that most men are punished for. Frankly, the men box culture is punishing, as we've all experienced everybody's experience that regardless of of your, you know, your journey. We've all experienced that. And you know, it's it's also like you alluded to, it's culturally constituted what is defined as masculine shifts over time. And this is kind of where I'm going with this, James, and is that I've been struggling over the last five years to figure out like, okay, what what equity am I getting out of these labels anymore? I mean, the labels, when I first applied them were thrilling. They were subversive because I'm an age where it was deeply dangerous and in a lot of places it still is. And it was also thrilling to find a new part of me and claim it and own it. But as I've gotten older, the the labels, especially on gender, especially on, you know, the expression of masculinity or the orientation of of male or men, none of it resonates. For me personally. It's almost like this set of traits that have been somewhat randomly aggregated, you know, to preserve order and patrimony and passing down wealth from, you know, from fathers to sons. And, you know, I struggle to think of a single masculine trait that can't be fully embodied by a woman and vice versa. Mm hmm. And so it's like I'm just like, what does it all mean? So it's like, done this full circle thing where it's just like, I feel like almost words, like a gender or post gender resonate more with me because it feels like a game. At a certain point, the qualities I can speak, the language, I can play the game. I and I can certainly use the game as a lens to love a vehicle to love others. But when I'm just by myself, I just think of myself as me. Or when am I in my marriage? It doesn't matter that we are both gendered by society as men. We're we're just married and then spouses. Then it's more about the love. So I guess my my point to you, my question to you is what do you feel personally in your life? The value is today where you are in your journey as gendering yourself as a man.

James [00:43:29] Hmm. I actually just had a conversation about that specific thing in my group coaching call this this last week. And I have a coaching program for trans masculine individuals. Trans men. And somebody asked that. They said, you know, I thought this far into my transition and with the program, like, I would know whether I'm non-binary or or trans man. And I, you know, I smiled and I said, I think that what we often do. Is think that it's this arrival like you just I've decided I'm in the end, this is it, right? Or for you? I've accepted it. This is it. Now I'm excited about it or I've embraced it or whatever. And what I said is. I think of my masculinity or not my masculinity. My manhood. Right. Being a man is something that I do in society. I don't identify necessarily with non-binary, identify as a man. And when I'm at the doctor's office, I check the book in the box. And if somebody asks if I'm Courtney's partner or husband, I'm going to say husband. Right. There are certain labels that just feel like home to me. But just like I am a book lover who does not read books 24 seven or a vegan who loves really delicious food. I'm not eating food. 24 seven. There are parts of me that have their time to shine and then they go away. They're just not important. They're not crucial parts of my identity. 24 seven And that is how I started to evolve into my relationship with labels and gender. There are certain aspects of my identity that are always happening, and the one that is consistent no matter what is being a father. I love those two. Even when I'm unintentionally doing it like they are, just there is this thread of me that I would die for them in an instant. I would do anything for them if they came through that door. I'd be like, Sorry, we're going to have a positive foster care because my kid needs a hug, right? There's just certain things that that is my identity and I will take that over my identity. Being a man like I am their parent. And other than that, the next closest thing is my love for my wife. But even her and I have done a lot of work to actually have healthy boundaries that we're not codependent. Li like obsessed with each other, right? Which does happen in the queer community a lot. Is having like that dysfunction in your relationship. So then when I start to look at my identity, I think there's a lot of me that there is a time for it and a time when it's not important. And so when I think of being a man is something that I use when I'm filling out a form or when I'm having conversations with somebody. And that's what they're needing from me, is that that guy relationship right there needing that part of my identity to come forward, I can give that to them, just like when I'm talking to a woman and I can tell that she's needing more of that part of me that's that's fitting to her identity. Maybe that's femininity. Or maybe it is. She's more masculine, right? But I meet her where she's at. That's a part of my identity that shows up just like when I'm reading a book. I'm not going to be reading a book thinking about something else. I'm fully in that book. I'm fully present as the book lover that I am. And all of a sudden we get to look at these identities as parts of these parts that we take on and off. And it doesn't have to be our skin that we wear, but it just gets to be a part of us that we get to take on and off. And that freed me up from having to have being a man means something that was concrete, and it gave me a lot more freedom for it to be. Without using the word fluid. It just got to be more fluid in that feeling of, Oh, I don't have to know all the time. Right? This is just something that like this is comfortable for me. Like if I had to choose between a woman, non-binary man, I'll pick men, right? That fits for me. But when I'm and we're at a barbecue and all of the guys go in the garage and they play pool and they're talking about super shallow stuff that I just do not care about. I'm going to stay in the kitchen and hang out with my wife and her friends, and I'm going to talk about the stuff that they talk about or I'm going to ask them how hard their weeks been or how's parenting going. I'm going to be vulnerable because I get to in that space, that's that's where I'm going to feel like I don't need to fit into society's category of man. Right? That's that's just not something that I'm very rigid about. And that was really freeing for me. RomComs, I always joke, were the moment that I really embraced my identity because I really started to notice how much people would say like, Oh, have you seen? I will say, I really liked Avengers movies were like my little vice because they're just enough silly that it works for me. But for the most part, I don't love heavy, dark thrillers like Action. They're not always my go to, and I would get insecure that people would be like, Oh, of you watch so-and-so. And I'm like, Now I just watched You Got Me on for like the 15th time. And, you know, there was a party that was insecure about that. And then when I started to embrace it, I realized, Oh, I get to define what man means. Like 100%. I 100% get to define what this means for me, and it does not have to fit any mold. So for you, that might mean something. Then it means for me, that's okay. That that's that's fine. It does not have to fit one set mold and you're allowed to play around with what that means. And you're allowed to to kind of have it be more of like a tactile experience where you're just like, like my kids will play with stuff and they don't need it to be something, right? They don't need the Play-Doh to turn into anything. They just get to play with it. And I think that's how we as adults need to get back into that childlike mindset. If we're just playing around with it, it doesn't have to mean something. It just is.

Britt [00:49:35] Just so cool. It is so cool. And yeah, you gave me a lot to think about there and I was starting to think, Wow, a lot of what you're describing sounds like it requires a certain amount of safety and security too, to explore those roles and differences to invest in, in yourself and your own healing. And, you know, it made me think about, you know, what are some of the ways that we can, you know, begin the process of healing ourselves. We are all kind of in the same roiling soup of this cultural storm, you know, thrown together in this pluralistic society we're in. And and a lot of us have not created space or had the capacity to start to claim the uniqueness of our identities, own the ways in which the universe is dancing through us and and begin to heal. And, you know, so maybe we can then leverage our wisdom and flare, you know, for queer people. Thinking about my own journey here to then, of course, heal. Masculine and feminine people, you know, through all walks of life. So I guess, James, my question to you is, you know, since since, you know, you are a coach, how do you start to how do you start to work with people who are just now awakening to the fact that there's so much more to their lives?

James [00:51:35] The first one was a tool that I was taught. I was reading a blog. I don't remember. There's a few different authors. It could be that I can't remember exactly who it was, but it's basically you lay down and it's an action, right? So this is a real tangible action that you can do. And you lay down. You set aside like 20 minutes and you set a pillow underneath your leg and a pillow under your head, and you put your hand on your belly, hand on your chest, and you talk to yourself about how safe you are. So you're safe, James. You're allowed to feel all of your feelings. You're allowed to feel angry, you're allowed to feel sad. You're allowed to feel angry. You're allowed to feel sad. You're allowed to feel excited. You're allowed to feel nervous. You're allowed whatever it is and you just verbally talk out how safe you are to feel emotions. And for a lot of people. That is sometimes the first time in their entire life that they have actually heard, especially for men, that they are safe to feel anything other than anger. So that can be a really healing. The first time I did it, I just sobbed. It took about 10 minutes where I just thought, Wow, I feel really silly. And then all of a sudden it just flowed. And I just was like, Oh my gosh, I have been holding this in and. That was really, really like jarring for me. That was really when my breakthrough started of how what else have I been holding in, right? Like, what else have I been not feeling? And so that was something that I encourage everybody to practice that as silly as it feels. You don't have to do it around anybody. You don't ever have to tell somebody you did it. But that can be very healing to just say out loud that you are safe to feel what you feel. And then the second thing that's less. Odd to try out is something along the lines of just writing out a list of things you've always wanted to do. You know, just nobody's ever going to see the list. What are things that might be something you normally wouldn't approve of, right? Like, maybe. Have you always wanted to paint your nails, but you've never done it right? Or you've always wanted to go get a pedicure or you've always wanted to go see a rom com, you know, or you want to watch that show. That's a reality show that all the all the girls in your office talk about. But you don't because you're like the guy in the office, Right? And what is it? What is it that you want to do that you are keeping yourself from doing in the name of misogyny or in the name of masculinity or whatever it is, and just write out a list of everything you've wanted to do and what is the closest to comfortable. I'm a big advocate of get comfortable with being uncomfortable. So if you're wanting to do any type of self-growth, you have to just get a little bit uncomfortable. And this is where when you are healing a part of you that society has told you for a very long time, this is who you are, this is how you exist in our space. It's inevitable that it will be a bit uncomfortable. So try to do things that are within reach, right? Just a little uncomfortable maybe. You know, if you have a girlfriend and she's going to go get a pedicure, be like, Now, maybe I'll go with you and you'll be amazed at how many men get pedicures and how normal that is. Right. But if you haven't ever been around it, that might be life changing for you. So that's what I would say is just start with small, actionable steps. You can do that, help you feel like, okay, I can get a little uncomfortable here, but it's not going to devastate my whole identity. I can make myself feel safe around the emotions I feel. And then the other thing is look up. I think there's an app how I feel which shows you all the different emotions. Or you can literally look up like Google list of emotions, a detailed list of emotions and print it off and start to get used to feeling like circling what the emotions are outside of happy, sad and angry. Because we in our society do not do a good job of building up emotional like maturity or a, you know, intellectual emotional, like intellect and emotional intelligence that sort of I'm looking for. And so when you start to build that relationship with emotional intelligence, you have to learn deeper words than just sad. You have to learn other words than just angry because your whole life, you thought it was angry and it really actually might be fatigue or anxiety or depression or scared. Right? There might be fear. You're feeling there might be something that has absolutely nothing actually to do with what is anger. And you have to let yourself understand, okay, today I'm feeling and then you circle the word and you start to understand, wow, I actually have a wide range of emotions I didn't know I was capable of feeling. So those are some actionable steps you can really can help with your emotional intelligence in your identity.

Britt [00:56:39] It sounds fun. I actually think I want a pedicure now. I've never worn.

James [00:56:44] They're amazing. They have been telling my dad, oddly enough, he's a contractor. He would go and get them. He loved them. And that's when I was like, Maybe I should try this out. Yeah, there might be.

Britt [00:56:54] I'm wondering, James, what gives you hope and where do you seek refuge?

James [00:57:04] I see hope in a lot of different places. One is my kids and their eagerness for curiosity reminds me of my own capacity for curiosity, that it's not gone, that I can have that. I have hope in the fact that. I have a job, right? There are companies out there who are looking at somebody like me who talks about empathy and understanding, and they're big companies. Some of them are Fortune 100 companies and they look and they go, We need to bring this into the workplace. That alone gives me hope that I can sit on a call with CEOs and say, This is how we show up for for our employees. This is how we talk about gender. This is how we talk about, you know, privilege. And they're listening and they get off the call and they say, oh, my gosh, I want to learn more. We want to bring you back. That gives me hope. It's not like this close ended conversation of, well, that was terrible. I don't want you ever come back. Right. And they're like, This is awesome, right? So that gives me hope. The fact that a lot of times people are seeing what the media is showing, they're seeing a lot of fear. And yet I am seeing on the other side of it people going, I want to learn more. I don't know what questions to ask. I don't know how to process this, but that doesn't mean I'm not curious. And so people's curiosity gives me a lot of hope.

Britt [00:58:30] Mm. Hmm. That's beautiful. You know, you are such a gift to this community. I don't know what community you align with, but I'm claiming you. So you don't actually get a vote. You are such a gift and treasure. I'm. I am so thrilled to have you on the show. And I'm inspired by the work that you're doing. And I'm so glad that you're out there fighting for all of us and and. And loving for all of us and and teaching us. Listeners, we will put all sorts of goodies in the show notes like always, where you can learn more about James and hire him to speak at your company. I mean, I would after all that, that was amazing. Or hire him as a coach. And so we'll give you links to everything so you don't have to scribble them down now on the fly. But mainly, I am just so grateful that you're out there and that you were here with us today. And I thank you. I really appreciate it.

James [00:59:30] Thank you so much. And I just am always grateful for spaces like this being created. So thank you for the work you do as well.

Britt [00:59:37] Absolutely. Well, listeners, you've done it. You've made it through yet another episode of Not Going Quietly. I'm so proud of you. So grateful for you. Without you, there wouldn't be a show. You mean the world to us? And I hope you have had as wonderful an hour with James as I have. I know I James has given me a lot to think about, and so I'm going to get out there and start. So thanks, everyone. Have a great rest of your day and. You've been listening to. Not Going Quietly with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Jonathan [01:00:13] Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Britt [01:00:21] Check out our show notes for links, additional information, and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.