Transformational Storytelling with Daralyse Lyons

Jonathan [00:00:02] Welcome to Not Going Quietly the podcast where we inspire growth, beat down biases and get into all sorts of good trouble with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Britt [00:00:11] No topic is off limits as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Jonathan [00:00:19] So get ready to join us in courageous conversation because not going quietly starts right now.

Britt [00:00:30] Everyone. Welcome to Not Going Quietly, the podcast for outraged optimists and heartbroken healers all over the world where we surface life searing truths in the name of radical togetherness. I'm your host, Britt East, and unfortunately, my co-host, Jonathan Beale, is still out on sabbatical. But I have fabulous news for you. We have an amazing featured guest today, Daralyse Lyons. I can't wait for you to meet her. She's going to knock your socks off. Let me read her bios. You can learn more about who she is. Daralyse Lyons, a.k.a. the transformational Storyteller, is a journalist, an actor and an activist. She has written more than two dozen full length books, a handful of short stories and countless articles performed in various plays and an improv comedy shows there. At least that's all a lot of stuff. A member of the National Association of Black Journalists and a summa cum laude graduate of NYU with a double major in English and religious studies and a minor in history. Okay, I'm starting to feel really inadequate here, but I'm trying my best to keep up. She says she is passionate about exposing the painful side of history, the side that is not written by the oppressors. Through her studies, she has come to see the beautiful and overlapping philosophies of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, and wonders why people so often use religion as a battering ram instead of a source of solace and support. As a biracial woman, she has made it her mission to stand for a more integrated world as a sexually fluid person who has had relationships and experiences with both men and women. She has had to find her place amidst a multitude of communities that attempt to erase her orientation and has been a voice within the darkness. After writing an award winning children's book about embracing her multi-ethnic heritage, Darrell found her passion and her purpose educating others about the need to embrace all aspects of themselves. Since then, she has written and spoken extensively on the subject of diversity. Her perspective is one that looks to acknowledge the past while refusing to become incapacitated by it. As a biracial, multiethnic and sexually fluid woman, she is uniquely empowered to use her seemingly disparate background as and as a catalyst for cross-cultural understanding. Darrell Lees, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. And how are you today?

Daralyse [00:03:08] Thank you so much for having me. I'm really grateful to be here. And I got to tell you, if I had known that you were going to read the longer bio, I'd have sent you a shorter one because they become very embarrassing, that is. But I'm so happy to be here with you.

Britt [00:03:23] That is my favorite thing to do. I torment guests with their full bio because I love celebrating each one of you and all of your amazing accomplishments. But every single person just shrinks in their chair and blushes and gets mortified. And it is so delicious for me to sit here and watch people cringe on the other side as I embarrass them with their glory and their achievements. So congratulations on all of them.

Daralyse [00:03:48] Embarrass me away. Thank you.

Britt [00:03:52] So, I mean, you're an amazing writer. You know, I've written one book, the the you're so prolific, such a talented writer. And I couldn't help but wondering as I was thinking about this, you know, we're recording this podcast episode at the end of April and 2023. Know what's going on there. If you were writing the story of contemporary US society, what would it be about? Oh.

Daralyse [00:04:21] Such a phenomenal one, I think, because I don't. I see societies as plural. Like, I really think that there are billions of people in this world right now who are having vastly different experiences based on gender and race and geography and family and all of the intersections and identities that they occupy. And so I don't know. I mean, if I was writing my story, I would be probably like pretty optimistic and also regretful about still being stuck in some like old patterns. Right? So I'd be writing about that. If I was writing someone else's story, I think I might be very celebratory or depressing, depending on the community and depending on the identity. So yeah, I wish I could give you like an easy answer, but I think it would very much depend on whether I was the center of the narrative or I was writing about someone else.

Britt [00:05:18] You know, I guess what I'm seeking in my personal life, maybe, like a lot of us, is a way to bring everything together in terms of what the heck is happening in this world. Not that necessarily. It hasn't always been happening to some form or fashion, whatever it is, whoever we're talking about, wherever we're talking about. But if we were to pan out, I guess it's another way of asking what unites us?

Daralyse [00:05:49] Mhm. Yeah. Well sadly I mean we've all just emerged from this collective trauma. I think we can agree that COVID 19 was a very traumatic experience for many, many people, a lot of loss, a lot of social isolation and alienation. And then at the same time this racial reckoning came to the forefront of the conversation and the political divisions. So, you know, I want to say that what unites us is our humanity and our beauty and our depth and richness. But I think in this moment in time, when they turn on the news or I, you know, read or I talk to people, I think really we're all kind of just united in this massive culture shock and and pain and anxiety. I don't know. I mean, for me, like, there's some optimism in that, in that fact that we can all unite around the fact that most people have had a hard few years and are still kind of reeling from the after effects of that. But I don't know, like I want to be able to give an answer that is so much more embracing of the beauty of human identity and experience. But I don't feel that way right now, and I don't know how you feel about it. But yeah.

Britt [00:07:06] I agree with you. I mean, I think it's one thing to be optimistic and another thing to be dismissive and Pollyanna. And, you know, in the U.S., we have an estimate of well over a million people dying from the pandemic. You know, some of us believe that, you know, as you said, I think we can all agree that, you know, about a third of the country is probably like, you know, that's it's completely fake. Nobody died of the pandemic or some variation of that. And so I really liked what you said about our almost childlike sense of confusion. And, you know, we're flailing around. This culture shock, I think, is what you called it. And I think that's really that could be maybe the title of the book, if you and I were co-writing the book of of where we are, at least as in the US, we'll just narrow it down to that culture Shock can be the title of it because no matter what culture you're talking about, we're all in shock. You know, we're all feeling it. No matter what you believe or disbelieve. I think it's fair to say every single one of us, at least in the U.S., is in some state of shock.

Daralyse [00:08:16] Yes. And I think, you know, to your point, even those who might deny the existence of a global pandemic like I think they're there is no denying that the world shut down in large part for those people. Right. And they might have different perspectives on why that is and what's happening. But I think that like those people whose views might be vastly different than mine, different than yours, are also in a state of like what is happening in this world. Their assessment of the problem is probably going to be very different than my assessment of the problem. But I do think we can see the after effects of social isolation and alienation and people existing in echo chambers like I think even on whatever side of the divide people occupy, I think they were affected by this recent time in our collective history.

Britt [00:09:14] Yes. And since you brought up the pandemic, let's just use back of the envelope numbers. Let's pretend a million people in the US died because of the pandemic. And, you know, we're just making that number up. I'm not an epidemiologist or a scientist. I just go by what I read and let's pretend it's a million. It's almost like they were kidnaped by aliens. They're just gone. They just disappeared. There is no public grief. There has been no reckoning. And I wonder how you handle that as a writer, as a storyteller, this story has yet to be told in any cohesive public mourning. You know, there's there's millions of stories, tiny stories spinning off of that. But, you know, we don't have the Vietnam War Memorial for COVID 19. We don't have we don't have a shared space where we can collectively grieve because maybe in part it's because it's still happening, but also maybe in part because, you know, at least a third of the country doesn't believe that it happened in the way that other two thirds do. So what do we do with that as writers? How how do you go forward each day when that when there's that void?

Daralyse [00:10:20] Yeah. Well, so I write a lot. I mean, one of the projects that I work on is called the Demystifying Diversity Podcast. I do a lot of work in the journalistic space about people who are underrepresented or disenfranchized. And I think one of the reasons that they're perhaps like, to use your analogy, that people are just kind of removed as if by aliens and and aren't spoken about is like if we look at the numbers, the people who were most impacted, this is not like this is not a sweeping generalization. There were people of all demographics who were impacted, people of all demographics who lost their lives. But the percentages are higher amongst black folks, members of the Latin and Hispanic community, older people. So I think those are people who historically have not been honored in their lives or in their deaths in the same ways as, let's say, people of the global minority. Right. Like, you know, white men, heterosexual men like, who were more who tend to be kind of more elevated and have more social privilege and social capital. And so I think it's interesting because even though the pandemic did not discriminate in terms of it, it very much impacted large segments of the population. Certainly those that were most likely to lose their lives were people who had preexisting co-morbidities, who have less disposable income. You know, there were all these socioeconomic and racial factors and that that played into that. So I think, you know, the way that I deal with it is while I don't really speak or write about the pandemic specifically, I've done very limited reporting in that space. I'm constantly thinking about and talking about people who tend to be socially dismissed in a lot of ways. And I think COVID 19 was one example of many of the ways that systemic oppression and systemic. I want to say maybe inequities are are realized are made manifest or make visible.

Britt [00:12:38] Yeah. And in that way, I think it's pretty clear the math is simple where you can connect the dots that share writing and sharing stories saves lives. I mean, I just think that's a pretty simple math at that point. But let's let's flip it now and talk about the particular. How has speaking and writing empowered you personally?

Daralyse [00:13:04] Yeah. So one of the things that you and I both share and I'm speaking about this because you've been very open about it is you and I are both on recovery journeys and I really believe that storytelling has saved my life, that, you know, there is something that is very empowering about being able to tell one's narrative and to be known, especially if a person has struggled with addiction issues or self-harm or any sort of, you know, self-abuse. And I feel like for me, the ability to tell stories in general, but then to tell my own story has really been life sustaining and life giving. And and for me, it was part of my reclamation of self because I came into this world a storyteller. I mean, I don't know if all children are, but I used to be under the covers at 5:00, like at at five years old. I used to be under the covers until like two or three in the morning with a flashlight, reading books and then falling asleep on my Cheerios the next morning, you know, I would make stuff up. I was an actress, like I loved telling stories. And for me, there was a period in my life where I got very divorced from that. I want to say in my late teens, early twenties. And so coming back to telling stories, it was it was a lot. It was like a recovering of my lost self, but it was also really instrumental in my process of recovery and self-care and learning to love myself again. And and also my stories have really shifted over time. I remember I used to have more of a victim narrative at the beginning of my storytelling days, and now I don't. That does not feel true to me anymore. So I feel like my relationship with story has been so central to who and what I am. And also my stories have changed over time.

Britt [00:14:49] I'm curious as to why why, you know, when you first share your. Okay, let me pan out like I love the 12 steps and I've been really open with that. I know it's kind of out of fashion now, but I just that's what I came up with in my recovery journey. And I just bonded deeply with I just love it. And the first step is you tell your friggin story and you know, when you do that, it's very cathartic, you know? And often, depending on the meeting, you're going to you do it in front of others. You have benevolent witness who then can hold your story in certain containers and spaces. I'm outside of that very specific scenario. I'm interested in why like, why is it so? How does it help you reclaim anything to write it down or to speak it? What is actually happening? And then on top of that, in any scenario, to have to have somebody bear witness to it, what is happening in that moment that feels so, I don't know, redemptive.

Daralyse [00:15:54] Yeah, it's really interesting. I love the framing of that question because I think when you give the example of like in a 12 step scenario, right, you're telling your story to those who have the same addiction affliction, the same, you know, like there's a mirroring that happens in that storytelling, which to me is very different than like standing on a stage in front of like in front of an audience of folks who may be different. Like I did a TED talk on my experience as a biracial woman. That was a very different experience than right now. I'm doing some reporting about biracial identity and like sitting across from the person who is also biracial and talking to them about their experience and my experience and bringing in stories like it's very different. And I don't think one is inherently better than the other. And I think all are important. And having said that, for me, telling my story to people who I can see myself in them, where they can see themselves in me is a different sort of healing and catharsis and mirroring experience. And for me, like, there is a tremendous amount of like being known, being seen, being loved, being held that happens in that space. Whereas the other to me is more about like representation and amplification and it's maybe a little more performative. So there's space for both. But I don't know that in my experience. The second is healing in the same way as the first has been in my life.

Britt [00:17:30] Yeah, And as a quick aside to the audience, I encourage everybody to check out Derrick Lisa's TEDx talk and we'll include the video in the show notes. Absolutely brilliant. I'll check it out and we'll put it in the in the show notes. So thanks. Thanks for that. You know, yeah, it's like one scenario is kind of educational, informative, like you said, amplifying being seen so it can inspire others to take up more space in the world and feel more authentic in the other. It's almost like the way you describe it. There's an alchemy that happens, a transformational component when I'm when almost spiritual and it's mysterious or maybe it's unknowable. You know, I think about these things a lot, and there's certainly a lot of buzzwords out there and the personal growth and development space, but it somehow it actually feels real. And it's it's almost like you emerge somehow changed as if we were each of us, carrying this sack of rocks on our shoulders, trudging uphill. And, you know, a few of the pebbles have been removed and, you know, but maybe even something deeper, maybe somehow the sack itself has changed or we have somehow changed. I don't know if any of that resonates with you dearly.

Daralyse [00:18:47] It absolutely does. And as you're speaking, I was thinking about like, why is it so much easier to share painful stories and celebratory or exciting stories.

Britt [00:18:56] Or your bio.

Daralyse [00:18:57] Reading? My bio. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And I was like, oh, like I'm so much rather. You talk about my childhood sexual abuse people. I went to NYU. I don't know what that's about, but I just know that that somehow for me, sharing my heavy stories, lighten the load and sharing my lighter stories makes me feel like an outsider I don't like. And I don't know why that is. I don't know if that's like cultural conditioning or the way that the human brain works. But that's that's what I was thinking about. Yeah, there is a there is something about sharing from a place of vulnerability that does lead to lightness. And also, you know, if you've ever had this experience. Brett But like, have you ever shared something really deep and, and important and like painful with someone and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like what I have to share sometimes. Like things are my own life and I'm like, Well, you know how like this thing happens and it's like really excruciating and blah blah, and the person's like, No, my mind does not work that way. I don't experience feelings. Like, I don't I don't know what you're talking about. I'm, I'm like, so for me, there's something about, like, it has to both things have to be true. Like I have to be vulnerable as the giver, but then there has to be something in the receiver, like a recognition or that the connection or something has to happen. And to your point about alchemy, there's like an exchange. And I think the same can be true for the more positive things, like when people are graduating together or getting married together or like something is a great thing that people are experiencing together. There is like an alchemy that happens, whereas there might be a disconnect if, like, one person is getting divorced and the other person is getting married and you're trying to talk about it, I think those times. So it really feels like there's a lot of ingredients that go into storytelling and the reception of that story. And it's exciting to think about and to contemplate. And I and I realize how, you know, we're shining light on some of this stuff, but I think people do this so naturally you get a promotion at work and then you go home and your spouse is like, you know, their parent has had some sort of horrible diagnosis. And like I think most people would not immediately share the news about their promotion at work. There's just a reflexive knowing of what information to give and to hold back. And so, yeah, I think every human being is a storyteller and just the platform and the and the audience is different for depending on the person.

Britt [00:21:43] Yeah, I agree completely. And you know, you read the room but, but also I think you made a really important point in that there is an art to this, whether it's fiction or nonfiction or memoir or biography or reporting or journalism, whatever it is. It's a collaborative art that happens in the moment. And so, you know, we've all had an experience if we're if we're book lovers or enjoy reading or even come back from articles years later, the book that we read five years ago is very different than the book that we read today, even if it's the same words on the same pages. And that's because we've changed. And so the collaborative moment has altered forever. You can never go back. I'm somebody who loves to reread books. It feels so decadent. I just luxuriate in it and I just I absolutely adore it. And my husband is just like, What are you even doing? You know how it's going to end and it's just, what are you wasting your time for? But I just wrapped myself up in it and it's because I hadn't really thought of it this way until this moment. It's because it's different. The nuances are different because I am fundamentally unaltered, but in a lot of ways, I'm always growing and shifting and changing and evolving and developing. And so the experience I'm having is different. Does that track for you?

Daralyse [00:23:04] It totally does. And I'm curious, have you ever read a book that you or reread a book that you loved and then realized that you didn't like it as much or read a book that you didn't like so much on the first go round. But then in rereading it, you saw some of its more redeeming qualities. Have you had that experience?

Britt [00:23:22] Absolutely. And I've even had books where I've reread them too much and it's like a little bit of the juice is gone. And so it's like because some of my favorite books I've literally read a dozen times and so it's like, Oh, it can't go back to the well, I need to wait some more years. It's like, you know, I know I've been a little too decadent and so I need to give it a rest then, you know. So yeah. And I think to your point, it's like, you know, because we're different. So that's really cool because it's like even the author could be long dead live on the other side of the world or whatever come from a very different lived experience. We're meeting together in this neutral space and sharing a moment.

Daralyse [00:24:03] Yeah. And, you know, I think about that. That comes up for me with re reading books, with movies or TV shows or music's times. I mean, there's periods in my life where I can't get enough of a certain song or I'll binge watch a show on Netflix, and three years later I'll go back to rewatch it. Like how? Or maybe there's a new character that resonates with me or. And the same is true in literature or podcasts and hymns. I'll listen to the same episode of podcast. Hopefully your listener. There might be a listener who is doing that right now listening to this podcast. And and I just find it fascinating how both I there are multi dimensions that I can't see, you know, the first time around. But also there are certain things in me that might be different that get activated or, you know, that are spoken to in different ways depending on what's happening. And I, I think all human beings try to create meaning out of life. I think that's just one of the ways that we're wired. But I feel like that's one of the things that I go to literature or books for is like somehow to relate it to my life, past or present and think differently about something, or to use that lesson in my life today, or to escape from my reality or whatever I'm using it for. And I feel like depending on that and where I am in my current moment in time, a book is different to me, but it also has to be different in order to hold my attention.

Britt [00:25:34] Yeah, well, let's shift to the process of writing. Is there like what is the writing process like for you? Is it sublime, transcendent drudgery, You know, a lot of hard work. What does it feel like?

Daralyse [00:25:47] Can I just say yes to all of this? Listen, I mean, you know, it's it I. I really. Like I'm a writer who think fully and joyously it is what I spend. I want to see maybe about 60 to 80% of my professional time doing is writing. So I'm lucky in that way. And because it is my work, I think there are times that it is about putting my butt in my seat and writing whether I'm inspired or not. But I also love writing. I wouldn't feel like myself if I didn't write. I keep a daily journal, I write for a living, and I keep a daily journal for pleasure. Like, I cannot get enough of the experience of writing. I love it. It's who I am. And there are times when I'm under deadline or I'm working on a book and it's I'm not particularly happy with how it's coming together or I've been given an assignment which is not I don't get to come up with the creative juices or I'm doing editorial work for someone else. There are times when I really don't want to be doing it, and I love what I do for the most part.

Britt [00:27:03] Yeah, you know, I'm a musician by training, and so I come at the art of writing a little differently and then some I think in the tone and voice, tone of voice even are really important to me, maybe even the most important part of writing and reading. And that might be an afterthought to some people who are very plot driven or information, trying to impart a lot of complex information depending on the genre or the the nature of the piece. And sometimes I get really sick of my own voice. And I can't imagine, like, you're so prolific and you do it for career and you're writing. Does that ever happen? Like where you're just like, Oh my God, or do you switch up the tone of C? I'm very cognizant about maintaining a specific tone of voice in my work. And maybe because your your output is so much greater than mine, maybe you're switching it up. And if you have different genres you're writing for, I don't know. What is your experience with that like?

Daralyse [00:28:00] Well, maybe I'm just narcissistic on my own, but. But I eat a couple of things come to mind when you asked me about that. So what is like for me? I don't really try to match tone of voice in the writing. I think that's something that I do in the editorial process. So. But I do remember years ago I was thinking about going for an MFA, and I remember I was advised not to do it and I didn't know. Like, it didn't make sense to me. I thought, Well, I'm a writer. I'm doing this professionally. I should get an MFA. And the person I spoke to said, Yeah, but you have a voice like you as a writer have a fully established voice already. And one of the things that happens at MFA programs, I'm not saying all MFA is there might be people who have MFA is on here, but one of the things, the criticisms that my friends who has an MFA and is a literary agent had was that in some MFA program programs they can sort of kind of dilute your voice to get you to write in a style and a voice that is of that particular institution or organization. And then writers sort of like unlearn their voice and then part of their process too. Then they becoming themselves again, is having to relearn what they've learned through the MFA program. And so it's really interesting that you talk about tone and voice, because I feel like that's one of the things that for me makes writers unique and distinct and special and precious. And there are so many books out there that really have. Fairly identical plots, but they're vastly different books because of the voice, because of the richness of the characters. So I think Voices is the story actually, you know, like. And I don't know. I get sick of writing sometimes. I need to take a break from sitting in a chair from working on a particular project. But I feel like that process of coming back to my voice again and again and again for me is part of that the healing and the joy of the craft.

Britt [00:30:12] That's a really beautiful somehow for me, it feels like I am. Let me see how to put it into words. I have to do my secret rituals in prime myself so that the energy passes through me. And it's I'm actually really not that new energy person, but around this, it's it's this mysterious process that happens through me. And I'm just this vessel, this hollow reed. And I find it depleting to continually go back to the well. And it could be that not all of us are meant to be professional writers. And maybe that's part of it. And it's like because of this sheer volume of words you have to transmit or the times you have to go to the well to to go to that space. Maybe some some of us have a larger capacity for that or a propensity for that than others. And I thought about that a lot. I thought, actually, it's funny you say about the MFA program because I thought myself at one point of of doing that and I have the exact same advice, and I ran for the hills because I'm so protective of my voice. I don't want anybody or anything intruding. It's like you can say anything else about my work, but the voice, it's it's like your opinions just don't matter. It's like, that's my thing.

Daralyse [00:31:31] Yeah, right, Right. It's it's a it's like identity. Right. It's unchangeable. And we can work on character development and plot and all those things. But, you know, I think to your point about the. Well, I. Well, for one thing, you write nonfiction primarily, right? So I think that and I write across the spectrum. So sometimes it's fiction, sometimes it's not. It's a great point. It's kids books. So I think I have noticed that different like memoir writing that to me is going to the well. And there's a lot of Mary Karr, I believe, wrote a really great book called The Art of I think it's the Art of Memoirs, What It's what it's called, But it's a beautiful book. And it details just how it's so revealing. Yes. To write memoir. And so for me, I do a dance where usually I'm working on like one lighthearted project and one deep project at the same time, and I'll sort of toggle between and betwixt the two, or I'll be working on a kid's picture book, and then I'm doing an editorial project for someone else. And so it's not my stuff, so I'm not as invested in it in the same way. I'm not as in love with it. I have a little bit more detachment. I have better boundaries because sometimes when I'm working on my own stuff, I can go into the vortex and I don't come out for a period of time. So I think I have found ways to navigate the experience that you're talking about because it is my profession and I also come from I spent many years working in finance and working in a business background. And so I think because I come to the craft with both the artist mindset and the business mindset and I've been doing it for a while, I'm not precious about any of my sentences. I don't care. I'm happy to change an ending, like do it all the time if I get that feedback. So I think, yeah, I'm not so invested in it. Well, no, I'm just like, I just love the process of writing. And so to be able to do it for a living, I'll sort of I'm willing to kind of do whatever it takes to be able to make that sustainable for myself.

Britt [00:33:49] Here's my question, though. I hear you on all of that. And I mean this sincerely, because I wrestle with this and I don't really I shy away from a more personally because I've got issues with the genre. And so I tend to write more personal growth and development stuff, but grounded in my own lived experience. So that's definitely a piece of it. So my question to you, Darlie says, Does it come at a cost? Like for me, there's there feels like a toll Acosta's incurred with each piece I put out and has to be replenished. It's not a zero sum game. I can replenish and heal, and I do. But because I don't know if it's the nature of the work, like you say, you mix genres really well, which is sounds like fabulous professional self-care. And to keep the interest and spark that feels like there's a toll, a part of me goes out with each piece, even if it's not. Memoir is something about there's a loss there. And I don't want to say I certainly don't want to sound precious about it, or even, I don't know, overly solemn about it, but I just can't help. And so I find that I have to, especially with big projects, and build into my timelines and ensure like I have time to nourish myself. And so again, maybe that's maybe that's another reason why I'm not a professional writer.

Daralyse [00:35:24] No, I love that question and thank you for asking it. I absolutely feel like there's a cost for me, not on every project. And it's different like I am. I mean, I know we're having a conversation. It's animated. I love interacting with people and I'm an introvert. And so for me, the cost tends to be in the marketing, the promotion, the like the sales, the the all of that side of it. I it's like. I would so much rather just curl up in a corner somewhere and write for forever. I would rather give my kidney, you know, than to have to do the the professional parts of of it in terms of the marketing piece. And so that comes at a cost for me. I also feel like depending on what the subject matter is, I have. I have written books before. I was emotionally ready to write them. You know, I've written about things in my own life before I had healed enough to be able to talk about it and share about it and write about it. And that really came at a cost for me. And the other thing is, so in my journalistic role, I, as part of the Demystifying Diversity podcast and I have another podcast called the On Being Biracial Podcast, and those specifically, I'm interviewing people and hearing about their traumas and their lived experiences and their pain and their sadness, some joy, some resilience, all of that. But that process very much takes a toll on me and comes at a cost. And I made the mistake early on in my journalistic career of I just schedule like five back to back interviews in a day. And I thought that would be fine for me. And I would, you know, and I'd have like a week. I mean, I did like 80 interviews in a month one time or something, because I'm like, Well, got it. You know, got to get this the information so I can write these pieces. And I and that was eviscerating. And not because of any one individual interaction or because of any one story that I heard that because I didn't do any of the replenishing, I didn't take any breaks. I didn't have the margin built into my schedule. So, yeah, I definitely for me, depending on the project, depending on where I am, what's involved, it, it can be very draining and it can like kick up a lot of stuff. And I tend to be a little bit of a self destructive person. And so I really have to be mindful of that, of how much I'm putting out and of where I'm filling back up.

Britt [00:38:06] Yeah, I that last comment in particular, it got me thinking a lot of my writing focuses on life's most searing truths and so I am somewhat. Seared in the process and scorched in the process. There's collateral damage sometimes. And so. Another aspect I struggle with is the audience. How do you learn to let your work fly and be free in the world and for audiences to misunderstand it, to apply labels to it, to have their own opinions, to understand it correctly, but differently, to have any number of unique reactions in the moment. Like we discussed earlier, They'll come to love it one day, hate it the next, what have you. Or aside from facile opinions like that, just even, you know, the information that you're trying to impart inevitably gets filtered and maybe even distorted through the lens of other people's lived experiences. How do you find peace with that?

Daralyse [00:39:17] Yeah, I think I'm a rare person and I have to talk a little bit about my childhood for you to understand that. So I am a bi, I am biracial, My mom is white, my dad is black. Raised by a single mother at a time when, like, single parenting wasn't really a thing in a very affluent community. My mom did not make much money and like, you know, she were and still to this day wears like, bagging mismatched sweat pants and like, you know what? Like, so I just grew up in a where there was a position ality between my mother and the world of like other people's opinions don't matter, you know. And so I think because of that I'm not. I, I, I don't tend to be very invested in reception in terms of like what other people think of my work. But I will say I do have some areas where I am very insecure. And so, like, for example, if I go stand on a stage and I'm delivering a speech and someone is like, oh, like, I don't know, like I don't like your size or I don't like your stomach or whatever, like your hair is too big like that, that will crush me, you know? I mean, that that is eviscerating for me. But if they're like, Oh, well, your message was like, was stupid, I could care less. So I think I think some of it is about my yeah, like my filters maybe might be a little bit broken or a little bit dysregulated, but I tend not to be deeply invested in other people's reception around content. But I do care perhaps a little bit too much about my image and how people see and filter me in superficial ways. So yeah, I don't know. I like I, I probably should not have said that on the record to put that out there. But it is my truth. It is my searing truth.

Britt [00:41:18] You know what? What gets me is when people like it incorrectly. So if they like my work but they don't like it the way I want them to, then it triggers both my control issues and my inability to deal with praise. It's like a twofer.

Daralyse [00:41:36] Yeah, right. Well, that's interesting that you said about the inability to deal with praise, because I will tell you that the the the people's opinions, who I very much care about, are the gatekeepers. So like, literary agents, publishers, I very much care about their opinions. And one thing that I have found incredibly frustrating is amorphous rejection. Like, I actually don't mind rejection. I don't mind criticism. I love it. I like to push myself to get better. But the sort of like, well, this just wasn't for us or this just wasn't for me that I don't I don't know what to do with that. But if someone gives me a five like five eviscerating points on why my work is not up to snuff, I actually appreciate that because I feel like I can go back and and do some things. So yeah. So you you have an issue with them liking your work incorrectly? I have an issue with them not liking my work without substantiation so that I can go in and fix. Yes.

Britt [00:42:40] Although I will tell you also a funny story. I have not thought about this in years. One time I had a piece rejected so thoroughly and eviscerated so badly that the person then wrote me a letter apologizing. And I think the letter somehow maybe even arrived before the rejection. Something it was this was years ago. And so it's like they felt so bad about how much they eviscerated my work. They had to write in like pre apology.

Daralyse [00:43:12] Oh, wow. Oh, my goodness. That's nice. Yeah, that makes me wonder what was going on with that person like. Yeah, yeah. That's so curious. Yeah, I wonder how I feel. I think I might like that eviscerating. Like I actually thrive off of like, you know, that's probably from my history of iMac and stuff, you know? But yeah, like, I just, I appreciate so good natured. This is so perhaps the Yeah. Topic for therapy or something, but yeah.

Britt [00:43:44] We've been talking around some labels and, and you've used some labels to describe yourself. I'm wondering what your relationship with labels themselves is like today. Like for instance, in my life I found, as you know, for instance, I identify as gay or queer, and I'll talk about that in a second. But when I first came out, it was thrilling to pick up that label and look at it and hold it and put it out into the world. And there's also a different age where it came with more risks, or maybe there was more thrill seeking as part of that. I don't know. It's hard to tell, but these days I'm just like me, you know, the label. Like I'll stand up and be counted and, you know, and march and protest and all that kind of stuff. But I don't have as much of an emotional attachment to to really any labels anymore. And I'm wondering if if you've experienced that in your own life, if there's been any sort of diminishing returns when it comes to the value of embracing labels or if they feel as alive and resonant with you today as they always did.

Daralyse [00:44:49] Oh, that's such a great question. I kind of feel like it circles back to what we were talking about with books. For me, at least in my experience like that, the label might change or my attachment to it might change over time. And which labels kind of take primary place in my life. Like it's very contextual for me. So depending on the space that I'm occupying, I think. A label is more or less important. But I've also noticed that for me it's less about the label than what it means because, for example, like I am the person who and I know what's right in my bio, right? I'm biracial, I'm sexually fluid, you know? And so for me, if I'm in a space and people understand that about me, even if they mis label it or refer to it in a way that I would not refer to me as long as they understand like who I am, I don't I don't really care. I'm not precious about the words, but I think where I take issue with it and I'll give you an example. I was at an event not too long ago. I won't name the organization, but I was at an event and it was a black owned and operated organization and I was there and the people were like, Oh, like white people on my right. And I was like, Oh, but what? You know? So it was a very it's like a very strange context, you know? And I've definitely been in spaces and I don't mean to single out members of the black community because I've been in spaces with primarily white folks and they're like, Oh, well, like that. But you're really like one of us, right? And I'm like, Well, yeah. So I think in most contexts it does feel important to kind of stand up and be counted. But most of the time when I'm in those kinds of spaces, like it's irrelevant to me if people see my identity, you know, I'm not the person who has to stand up and like claim my sexual orientation. At a a child's birthday party like it's not appropriate. It's very for me, very kind of contextual. And I think where it does matter for me is where I'm in a position of privilege and other people are not in that space. And I do feel like I might be the only biracial or multiracial person that that person encounters. And so I want to be able to make them aware of that so that they can perhaps change their narrative. Or I may be the only, you know, hetero flexible, the bisexual person that that person encounters. And I might want to kind of help support them in changing their narrative around that. So it's I feel like for me, where it's most important is in an educational context or if I feel like my identity is being raised. But most of the time I'm just a person. Like I'm just a person and I have many layers to me and I don't really need to put labels on those unless or until my identity feels diminished or threatened in some way, or it feels like it could be an important teaching tool.

Britt [00:48:03] Yeah, and like you said, if there's confusion and it got me thinking, Oh yeah, that makes sense. Nobody's confused about me. And so it's like, I can totally see where it's like, depending upon your experience, your presentation, your demeanor, you know, how you fit into society's assumptions and containers and how people can sort you. Then, you know, labels the power of the label, the thrill of the label, the importance of it, the leverage associated with it can vary from situation to situation where it's like I'm just used to people not being confused. So that in and of itself, frankly, is a privilege. And when we've talked a lot about on this podcast with regards to, for instance, what some people might refer to as in our in our community as straight acting gay men, this the associated adversity with that and the associated privilege, of course. And so, you know, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. And you kind of got me thinking. You write so beautifully about how wonderful your mother was and raising you and helping you explore your your racial heritage, who taught you how to be culturally queer and correct any label if you if that doesn't apply to you sexually fluid issue and I mean from a cultural point.

Daralyse [00:49:27] Yeah, I really appreciate that question. You know, it's interesting because like that for me feels like an area where I still feel lacking in terms of queer culture. I don't feel like I'm fully a member of the LGBTQ community. And I knew I had started this group in Philly where we were talking about like bi erasure and, and we were and we were meeting we were meeting like once a month for maybe close to a year. And it kind of the group disbanded. But I think that was one of the things that we talked about and you talked about like straight acting gay men in quotations around straight, right or straight acting. But but I think that for me, my bisexual identity was something that did not really emerge until maybe late high school or early college year. I, I think because I come from a very kind of accepting family and accepting background, it was just like what? You know, like there wasn't there weren't really conversations about it. I didn't feel like I had to really claim identity. I remember when I did come out to my family, they were just like, Well, you don't have to make this mean anything. You just happen to have fallen in love with a woman like they didn't like. The labels did it. So. So it was it was interesting for me. I never really felt like I had that community around that aspect of my identity. I feel like also as a bisexual person, like when I've been in relationships with kind of heterosexual appearing relationships, right? Like I've just sort of gone into those communities. And then when I've been in relationships with women, I've gone into those communities. But I don't I don't feel like there's ever really been the space for me in those realms. And I don't know that I've ever I never have felt the importance of it, except when I go into bisexual spaces and I'm like, Oh yeah, this is a layer of my identity that I don't often explore. And it's it's interesting because I will share this with you. Brett Britt Like I. I have never in my life felt a sense of questioning or inadequacy around my racial identity. I just haven't. And I interview biracial people all the time or multiracial people all the time who like that's been a huge source of pain and strife for them. It just in my life it has not. But when it comes to gender and sexual identity and sexuality and sexual orientation, and we can talk about trauma that I've experienced that may or may not have to do with that, I don't know. Like, I'm not trying to psychoanalyze myself, but that's a realm where I still I don't know if I'll ever feel completely whole and safe and full and fully actualized in that space, because it was something that I came to later in life and something that I explored later in life. And I just haven't found that those same mirrors that I've found in terms of racial identity. So yeah, it's something that I work on, but to be frank, I don't think I work on it as much as I could because it's sort of probably because of some interjected self judgments or, or, or fears. I don't know. It's a it's a beautiful question, and it's one that I wish I had a better answer to.

Britt [00:52:57] You know, there and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, Jonathan, my co-host as bisexual. And so we've talked a lot about the deep historical antipathy between gay men and bisexual men. It is bad and there's all sorts of complex reasons for it all goes back to straight supremacy. But the the the antipathy is real. And I can't help but wonder if there's something similar between bi pan fluid women and lesbians and in the community. Have you ever felt that?

Daralyse [00:53:31] Totally. And every woman that I've ever been in a relationship with has been very threatened by my bisexuality, such that I've not been able to talk about it like it's it's been like. So now you're one of us, you know, like we're not gonna, you know. And it's and I think that the reverse is not true of the relationships I've been in with men. I have not been in a relationship with the non-binary person at this point in my life. I'm yet not for any reason. I just have not met a person where like in a non journalistic setting, where it would have been appropriate to explore that. But oh yeah, men don't seem to have that same feeling of being threatened or something, but sometimes there's a a or prurient interest in it or like a fetishization or like it's like a weird source. Like sometimes it's icky, but it's not threat. There's not that fear or that stretch or that animosity or. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a weird thing. And then the other thing that I think there's a woman, Robin Oaks, who she actually coined the definition of bisexuality. She's an amazing educator and activist and she talks about how bisexual identity I mean, you and I were talking about like invisible identities a little bit. We were we were gesturing to that. And I think bisexuality is one of those identities that is really not seen, like unless I'm walking down the street holding the hand of a man and the hand of a woman or whatever, like, you can't really see that. And so I think because of that, there's a lot of erasure and a lot of misunderstanding that happens and a lot of conflating of that identity with promiscuity or so. So it's. It's it's very complicated. And it's it's and it's an identity where I think even in LGBTQ spaces, there can be animosity.

Britt [00:55:34] Yeah. You know, you know, we're we're, we're a loose confederation of different cultures and we often don't have a lot in common with each other. It's just so much of because of the way we're socialized through a gender and a heteronormativity and, you know, like you're saying, if you are in in a lot of people's eyes, you're not gay or or bi or pan or whatever, unless you're with somebody that presents as the same gender. You know, if I can quickly, because we're filtering through gender first. And so if I can quickly filter you this way, you're either straight or you're or you're gay. You can't, you know, by is just too confusing. It's for for a lot of us to hold. And it's like, you know, who are you with today? That must be how you are. And it's certainly a complicated topic. It's interesting to hear that, that women are experience a version of that that is similar to what so many men experience. But I think the common denominator is that systematic erasure. And, um, you know, I feel like that comes from the patriarchy, the, the, the obsession with inheritance rights, you know, to knowing who your children are and knowing who, who, who will be your lineage after you die. Then the patrimony passing down of wealth from one generation to another and what your legacy will be. You know, white guys are obsessed with statues. So it's like, who is your statue? You know what what is your statue going to be and who's going to erect that and and honor that statue? And I just feel like so much of it, so much of it goes back to to to that. And and it's, you know, in the community when we talk about cultures, you know, one of the things that a lot of us gay people will say when people are not in the room is, you know, that that there is really no bisexual culture and it's there's mysterious representation.

Daralyse [00:57:47] Yeah, there's bisexual icons. But I think I mean, in in that way it's like it very much is similar to the experience I think, of being biracial, right? Like I don't have a culture that is solely biracial, but I have a culture that is like, you know, by the black side. I have explored my black family, my white. Yeah. Like, and then I have the sort of like Irish Italian culture that I grew up with. And and in that same way, I think as a bisexual person or, you know, hetero, flexible, flexible person, it's like I have the culture of straight cis normativity and then the culture of like lesbian queer identity and, and exploring those things. But like, what is it? I do think there's a third space that is created as a person who maybe doesn't fit neatly into these pre-established boxes and categories. And I think it's there's a value in that, but there's perhaps a little bit of a loneliness or an existential angst that can come up if a person navigates between spaces as opposed to like falling squarely in a predetermined, easily definable space.

Britt [00:59:06] Exactly. Exactly. We're all complex mixtures of privilege and adversity. And to that point, I can't help but wonder what would your rights of passage as have been as a biracial and sexually fluid person if you were to script the perfect society that honored the complexities of who you were from day one, you know, what would those have been? What would you have experienced? How would you have been celebrated? How would the cultural transmission points have gone for you?

Daralyse [00:59:39] Yeah, well, I think when it comes to race, I got a lot of that. Like, I definitely I was growing up like, I mean, on cultural cuisine day, my mom made man Dorsey and lasagna. Like, it was just like, very I was sort of Asian growing up called Black Books Galore, where there were black authors and illustrators that I was exposed to as a child. And I got to be in those spaces. But then I also got to like, have backyard barbecues with my black stepfather and my, you know, white family like. So it's just I feel like I got that and I got the you know, let's sit down and talk about race. Conversations from black folks and white folks. And, you know, and I got to I remember being asked, like early on, like, you know, how do you identify and being able and saying, I'm biracial? Like, I just I had all of that. And I think it's really shaped how I see myself in that way and my ability to embrace the multifaceted nature of my culture and my racial identity. But when it comes to sexual orientation, I just I didn't have that same fear. So I think it would be like if I were to take what I experienced around race and just sort of put it into the the sexuality space or the and gender identity it would look like. But I will say that one of the things that is really beautiful I did some reporting with young folks not too long ago and like they are so much more. I'm 39 and I think growing up in 1983, like these were not conversations that people were having. I assume folks born before me, it was even less likely that they were going to be having these conversations and exploring these things. I do remember having these feelings way earlier on, but I didn't talk about it like we just didn't talk about those things. And I think this new generation of young people, they are talking about it. They are more comfortable kind of holding the fluidity of their attractions and orientations. And and I think that's really beautiful. So I kind of can't imagine what it would be like for me, but I would have been like for me or how that would have altered me. But I can look at young folks today and see how they're being raised and how they're being cultivated in a world that is more receptive of their identity is in this way. And I think it's I think it's so beautiful. And I don't know what kind of magic it would have led to for me, but I am really excited witnessing that magic happening in the generation that is coming up now.

Britt [01:02:28] Yeah, I am too. And I think we've come full circle because we started off the conversation with the dystopian hellscape of our present day and you refuse to be anything but optimistic. And now we're back to your roots. And I think you gave a great answer about why you're optimistic. You know, I think you kind of backed your way into the source of some optimism here. This Gen Z cohort, they get it. And in a way that my generation certainly didn't. And that gives me a lot of hope as well. And so so thank you for that. It has been such a pleasure to chat with you today. I learned so much. Thank you.

Daralyse [01:03:06] Thank you, Britt. It's been a wonderful conversation to meet you. And thank you for. You know, to everyone who's listening.

Britt [01:03:13] Yeah, absolutely. And like I said earlier, Daralyse is so prolific and we're going to put all sorts of goodies in the show notes, links where you can find her work and and support her and read her beautiful writing and make sure you watch that TED talk. It's fantastic. And so it'll just be at your fingertips. And so make sure you check out those show notes. Dear listeners, thank you so much for joining us for the last hour. You made it through another episode of Not Going Quietly. We're so happy you did. We could not do this work without you. Thank you so much for all your support. And until next time, take care, everyone. Bye bye. You've been listening to me not going quietly with co-hosts Jonathan Beale and Britt East.

Jonathan [01:03:58] Thanks so much for joining us on this wild ride as we explore ways to help everyone leap into life with a greater sense of clarity, passion, purpose and joy.

Britt [01:04:06] Check out our show notes for links, additional information, and episodes located on your favorite podcast platform.